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I might as well be hitting myself in the face with a hammer, but I find this conversation I am having with a reich-wing nut via facebook, to be an exercise for me. He says some crazy, out of touch with reality shit, but I continue to respond.

Here is some of the conversation:

My response to him:

current Unemployment rates are clearly due Bush policies and reaganomics, some can not seem to see that for its obviousness. Remember when Bush and Bernake started the whole Bank Bail out thing....

58% do not disapprove of Socialized health care, tell that to all the people who are already on Government run health care..Medicare. Can you send me a link to the polls that show 58% of us disapprove of universal health care?

Since your so dead set against socialism, which I am a Democratic Socialist, you would be for privatizing the Police and Fire Departments, ending Medicaid and Medicare (there by tossing millions of elderly and handicapped under the bus, for profit of course), you will no longer be driving on any of the roads since they were laid with Socialism. I would assume you will not be collecting your unemployment either, since that is socialism and you hate that. All Social programs are in fact Socialism, so if you ever need food stamps because you hit bottom, do not bother getting them, because you are against socialism. There is a rather long list of Socialized programs in the US, perhaps, since your so against Socialism you should buy yourself that plane ticket. You might be happier is Somalia.

Afghanistan is bullshit, we should not even be in the middle east for anything. I disapprove of all war mongering and its funding.

"the billions of TAXPAYERS dollars have NOT created enough jobs to stimulate the economy" LOL, uh yeah, because there is not such thing a magic.

"General Motors continues to FAIL!" GM is in reform and as far as I am concerned, if your to big to fail then your to big to exist.

"Deutschland has a 36% immigration rate to America" Link please? The CIA factbook has the German population estimated in 2008 at 82,369,552 so if 36% of all them decided to pack up and move or even apply for immigration that would mean that last year 29,653,039 Germans moved to the US. /

"do my critisims make me patriotic like you??" You assume I hate America because I see the error of my countries ways, that America is not perfect. You act as though 'your America' or your idea of America has been taken from you. You do not see it as I do, you think your are trying to rescue some one who has been kidnapped or that you have been robbed. I do not see it that way, so my idea of patriotism is not like that of yours.

"temper tantrums??YOU AINT SEEN SHIT YET!!," Hilarious to the last.

Guten Tag! Tschuss.

His Reply:

"The thought of your statement,"Democratic Socialist",not only shows your stupidity,, but lack of knowlege of how the CONSTITUTION works.Sorry but you cant have it both ways,,your either a Socialist,or not.If your a Socialist,I would love to get to know you!!,,really I would!!,,why?,,I love keeping my friends close!,,and my ENEMIES CLOSER!!,,good luck!!,,Oh yes keep blaming Reagan,Bush,and whoever else you want to,,when do we get to blame Obama?Clinton?Pelosi??,,again,,its time to quit finger pointing and take responsibilty for what they(The Obama administration),have done,,and one day,,THEY WILL!!"

My Response to Him:

Stupidity? I am well aware of what a Democratic Socialist is and I think your the one who needs to lesson in Government philosophies. Socialism is not Communism, Democratic Socialism is what is already established here in the states like Medicare and the Police Department, which I am sure you think are unconstitutional. /

Your obviously to oblivious to reality to recognize socialism even though you use every day i.e. the roads and streets you drive on.

Obama has been in office for 10 months and I can hardly blame him the hand he was dealt. At least when Clinton was in office there was a surplus and no deficit, at least when Clinton was in office people had money.

But no thanks to raygunomics and the deficit hole bush plowed us into, which when he left office he left a $1 trillion dollar deficit and two pointless and wasteful wars. Yet I am sure you are willing to bend reality to your will and blame those on Obama too.

Reagan and Bush I and Jr can be blamed, this shit is the result of their fucked up policies. If Obama did this shit I would say exactly the same. You want to blame Obama for EVERYTHING, no matter what the hell it is. Is your toilet clogged? It is Obama's fault. Did you get the flu? Blame Obama...etc

And do not forget to provide those links to your accusations.

His Reply:

"I dont blame Obama for everything,I just want him to take responsibility for driving us into poverty,like all of the socialist countries we know of.The reason there was a surplus of money and jobs during the Clinton yrs. were due to the Reagan administrations actions,including the fall of the Berlin wall,and Russia,another socialist country.So in 2 years when all hell breaks loose,we the people take back our country and we the people hold these elected officials responsible for thier actions,what country will you be living in??My offer still stands,ANY place you want to go,,let me know!!,,I will book you on the next flight out!!Please remember,,Iam niether a Deocrate or Republican,,Iam an AMERICAN!!"

My Response to him:

Again, you need to provide links to your assumptions.

Prior to the US financial crisis, which is due to trickle down economics aka Raygunomics, the EU was financially stable; with Germany having the strongest economy in the EU.

Prior to Bush II:

During Bush II

Knowing full well that Obama has only been in office for 10 months, any one with half a brain knows that the results of the US financial down turn was all due raygunomics coming to a head and Bush I and II's tax cuts to the wealthy over the course of their White House occupations along with other craptastic policies.

Just exactly how could Obama possibly be at fault for the mess left to him? Why do not you ask for Bush and Dick to take responsibility for there actions or to have them held accountable? After all, the number one reason for the mess are the middle east occupations, which is costly in lives and deficit spending.

I am not at all please with President Obama's decision to continue the occupations of the middle east, I reject the idea that we have to be there.

The Berlin wall came down, not due to any major actions of the US, but because the USSR's economy tanked due to their 40% military budget and as a result, they could not longer afford to maintain the occupation. Reagan and Wilson jumped in to take credit for something they had no hand in.

"There’s a grain of truth to the right-wing notion that Reagan’s early military buildup scared the Soviet Union into submission: Some (though not all) in the Kremlin hierarchy did genuinely fear that the USSR, because of its technological backwardness, could not compete with Star Wars. But the larger reality is that even without Reagan’s initial buildup, a Soviet leader would have eventually tried to curb the arms race. By the 1980s, military spending constituted an eye-popping 40 percent of the USSR’s budget, Moscow was importing vast quantities of grain, and the Russian people were growing restive. Sooner or later, a reformer like Gorbachev would have emerged. What really mattered was that when Gorbachev did emerge, he was able to convince the Politburo that the USSR could dramatically reduce military spending—and let Eastern Europe go free—without fearing American attack. (The USSR, it’s worth remembering, had been attacked through Eastern Europe in both World War I and World II.) And Gorbachev could do that because Reagan’s dovish rhetoric and his embrace of arms control made America seem far less menacing. As Soviet Ambassador to the U.S. Anatoly Dobrynin noted, “If Reagan had struck to his hard-line policies in 1985 and 1986…Gorbachev would have been accused by the rest of the Politburo of giving everything away to a fellow who doesn’t want to negotiate. We would have been forced to tighten our belts and spend even more on defense.” /

The USSR is not a socialist state, it is Communist.
1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.
2. (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.


You do not seem to concerned with holding the 8 year occupiers accountable for their actions, why is that? You say you have not political party affiliation and yet, you blame everything on Obama and the Democrat majority. I find it rather hard to believe that you are not a Republican, when you know that in 2002, every single Republican backed the Iraq invasion, along with most Democrats, with the acception of 1 or 2.

Republicans gave Bush everything and anything he wanted, every single time. To argue that it is all the current Presidents fault is just ignorant.

Might I remind you of what is Socialism, which the US has already:
The roads you drive on.
Police and Fire Departments
Unemployment Benefits
Social Services
Public Schools

To call Obama a Socialist, when he is a traditional Capitalist, is laughable. It is also flat out ignorant to say that Socialism in America is something new, when in fact, it is in the fabric of the country and has helped and not hurt. To Socialize health care would be majorly beneficial to every one and even the deficit, countries with Socialized health care have the best health care, a not for profit health care system that puts care before profits.

Those EU countries, with their Socialized Health Care, provide better care then the states. Why? because everyone has access to it and everyone contributes to it. No one in the EU goes bankrupt because of their medical bills, because their are no medical bills. It is paid for with taxes. Why is that such a bad thing?

We pay more in taxes then people in France and yet, they have one of the best health care systems in the world and you can even go to university for free.

I am not an advocate to turning everything over to Socialism, just health care. It has already been proven that Socialism and Capitalism can co-operate, that is exactly how the EU and many other countries function, with both.

In 2 years, Barack Obama will be elected to his second term. Seeing that your not a Republican nor Democrat, you must be supporting the Libertarians or some other party, which clearly does not have a chance at even getting in the debates, let alone win a Presidential election.

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It is business as usual on the hill, with bought and paid for reps whom you think you voted for; when in reality they were kindly selected by the corporate poltergeist who, though the rep. haunt the hill. It is repulsive, to say the least, that “our” Government is not ours at all, just a shell painted like an Easter egg to fool us into believing we actually have a Democracy, a Government as it was meant to be in the scribing of this country’s Constitution is not what you see.

What we have is the United Corporate States of America, a nation of and for non-people, entities that are not made of flesh and bone; but steel and wire who have exploited a court ruling that was to protect black land owners.

Both parties are to blame for this, repuke and democract, for continuing to allow corporations to be treated as people. Repukes do not care at all, they actually love this false notion and use it to fill their Swiss bank accounts; Democracts, one may think, would be willing to end this atrocity and corporation exploitation of the peoples Government. But, it was not until recently when Sotomayor questioned this fallacy of “corporations are people too” that it was finally brought forward.

You see, the only way we are ever going to get anywhere, is to rid the hill of corporate favoritism and all the lobbying done on the hill for the sake of special interest. To take ground and to see real progress, it would be a good first step to break the legs of the corporations, to cut out their tongue and leave them for the crows to peak out their eyes. Who allowed these ‘non-persons’ to burn and pillage of Government and country, to allow them to cipher the blood and life from us all? When will a mass of people wake up and realize they have been (are being) robbed blind?

What will it take I ask you, who will stand up and say enough? To see the many being dragged behind the corporate wagon down gravel roads for the sake of a very small percentage of the population is vexing.

History tells us that ‘change’ comes in the form of revolution and a deep desire to crawl out from under repression. Is this what the States need, an internal revolution to dismantle the Government as it is and start anew? I do not think a violent revolution is needed, but something has to be done to get the claw fingers of corporation out of our cookie jar. This is the number one cause of a majority of our issue we cannot get resolved; from environmental issues to health care.

Not only are corporations to blame, but money is also the key factor in what ills America and the world. Why do corporations behave the way they do, not only are they just plain evil, but they want more MONEY. The beast is never satisfied and it never will be as long as money exists, you cannot cure an illness unless you remove the root cause and with corporations, it is money and their insatiable appetite for it. They will kill you and your family if it means they can make money from it, they have no concern for us or our planet; they just want more money and will destroy and kill to get it.

These uncontrolled monsters have to be tamed and placed in a cage under watchful eye, if left to their own devices they will continue their death parade and it is sure to come to a town near you.
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I just watched Lawrence O'Donnell hand the dip shit dissenter Katy Abram the clue phone. It is a good idea to know what it is your against before you open your fucking mouth, this brain dead wench is obviously what the mass of stupid is like out there. "I don't want this country to turn into Russia." Are you fucking kidding me?? RUSSIA??! Russia was/is Communist you dumb ass.

For the brainless Zombie dissenters, I suspect they will not be using the following:

1: Social Services. All of which are Socialism and with such strong disdain for Socialism, YOU WILL NEVER EVER BE using ANY of the services.

2: Roads. Yes, All the roads you drive on every fucking day were made with SOCIALISM, that would include the sidewalks, so yo better be figuring out how to levitate real fucking fast, because I want you to stay the fuck off both.

3: The VA. If you have ANY veterans in your family, you better keep them away from the evil Socialized VA. Do not seek out ANY VA services.

4: Medicaid and Medicare. Yes indeed, both are Socialized Services and I expect ALL those dissenters who are using these Socialized services to IMMEDIATELY stop doing so.

5: The Police Department. In order to show us how much your are against Socialism, that you will be sticking to your guns, Do not call the Police for anything, EVER. This is a Socialized Service and your are against Socialism, stay true to your convictions and never call them for ANY assistance.

6: Fire Department: See No. 5

7: Infrastructure. With such disdain for Socialism, I expect you will also be protesting all infrastructure work being done in your state. This work is being done your tax dollars, AKA SOCIALISM. So get out there and shut them down today!!

8: The BMV. While your out there ending ALL socialism, stop by the BMV and protest as well, this is also Socialism. How can we allow "Socialist" to hand out our drivers license renewals and our plates? Oh fuck! Your plate on your car is made with Socialism, REMOVE IT IMMEDIATELY!!

9: Unions. All unions need to be shut down as well. This is organized labor, one of the pillars of Socialism, you can not stand for that, so get out there and union bust!!

10: Public Schools. Please pull all of your kids out of public schools ASAP. You will have to enroll them in high cost private schools because your are opposed to socialism.
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Posted by and-justice-for-all in Health
Wed Aug 12th 2009, 07:33 PM
These people do not seem to know what they are mad about. They are 'claiming' to be against a NHS in the states, but you never hear them crying about: Medicaid, Medicare, Social Services, Police or Fire Departments or even those SOCIALIZED roads they drive on every day.

No, these 'protesters' are distraught over the fact that the President is BLACK. They are also dealing with the fact that they are a minority and have always been a minority in this country, contrary to what the M$M tells us.

The major false propaganda by the likes of Faux News, Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Coulter and a slew of NeoFascist websites like Free Republic and Drudge, along with the insurance and medical industry supporters, who continuously feed people the nonsense and lies about the reform are the source of the so called 'protest' by a small minority.

You can easily tell that people do not know what they are talking about from the statements made by rabid Reich-wing shrills.

"I don't want the Government to run my health care." So, why are you on medicare/caid?

"I do not want the Government bureaucracy involved in what is covered and what is not" or "the Government will ration care" Even though your insurance company, if you can afford insurance, already does exactly that. Rations your care by deciding what is and what is not covered and how much they will pay. Either it is covered or you pay for the treatment all out of pocket or you go without.

"No socialism in America" Well, Socialism is already in America, has been for sometime and Socialism is not Communism, which is the definition I hear from people about Socialism, clearly demonstrating they have no idea what they are talking about. They do not realize that they participate in Socialism everyday: from the roads they drive on, to Medicaid/Medicare, the VA, all social services, any government program, Police and Fire Departments.

"Who is going to pay for it." and "The debt..." well, we are all going to pay for it, nothing is free, even here in the free world. Which I have not issue with, because I understand that and as long as I have access to health care without having to worry about, I do not mind. repubicans got their wars and now we want health care. The debt was started by bush, who as he left office, left us a $1 trillion dollar deficit, but you do not hear those people screaming against that. The national deficit will never be repaid, no matter what, Bush started us down this road and he did so for what? Wars that could never be won, tax cuts for people who do not need them. What part of Bush's trillion dollars did you get?? I got dust and occupations I did not want.

So if Obama wants to rack up more debt to give me health care..I say THAT'S FANTASTIC!!!

Basically, anything that is not held by a private entity and paid for with our tax money, is Socialism.

The hostility at town halls does not work in their favor either. It does not help to be mad about something if you do not understand what it is your mad about, which is very much the case. How many have actually read the bill versus those following orders from their dark overlords Limbaugh, Hannity, O'reilly...etc?? looks like ZERO to me.

America needs this reform. There are millions of people who do not have access to health care simply because they can not afford it. Health care is a right and not a privilege and every one should have access to health care period.
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With the perfect hair
and the perfect wife
and the perfect kids
and the perfect life
i can finally be somebody ...)

let's play born-again american,
resistance is the game!

two pigs wearing suits
brought the news
that I'm wanted by the bank

they say the rent is due
Caesar's onto you
so you better remember your place

then they outsourced my job
and gave a raise to my boss

bailed out the banks
but billed me for the loss

they say we must submit
and be one with the Machine

because the Kingdom of Fear
needs compliance to succeed

so waterboard the kids for fun
it's all the rage

and play born-again American
Resistance is the game

work buy consume die

happy little slaves for minimum wage

the revolution will be monetized
and streamed live via renegade wifi!

the clinic said i'm sick
toxic ..... and impure

but there isn't any cure
for the poor or uninsured

so we live our digital lives
on multiple screens

and we forget that
the blood of the workers
grease the machines

in the Psalm of the Fiends
Love ...... discriminates

while the fat cats feed the rats
their daily dose of cake

so waterboard the kids for fun
it's all the rage

and play born-again American
Resistance is the game

work buy consume die

happy little slaves for minimum wage

work buy consume die

haters betrayers liars and thieves


she sold her soul
for designer clothes

for the perfect lips

and the perfect nose

the winner in the end
always owns the most

reality tv told her so!


money changer!
greedy bankers!

This is the Peoples House!

my minister has a sinister plan
to save my soul with a credit card scam

exploitation is contagious
for the selfish & self-inflated

start a war, use the poor,
watch our profits soar & soar

we've become a nation of wolves
ruled by sheep

owned by swine
overfed & put to sleep

and while the media elite
decrees what to think

i am wide awake
on the edge
and on the brink

so when Atlas Shrugs
and The Fountainhead bleeds
and when Wallstreet Apostles
preach a gospel of greed

i'll renounce the fame of this gluttonous age
and be a Born-again American
Resistance is to Blame!

work buy consume die

happy little slaves for minimum wage

a nation of wolves - ruled by sheep!

exploitation is contagious
exploitation is contagious

Artist: OT3P /
Album: Smash The Control Machine
Year: 2009
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Posted by and-justice-for-all in Health
Sun Jun 28th 2009, 07:20 PM
April 23, 2008 in Health Care Around the World, International Health Care Systems

I have already written about Switzerland in previous posts (see Swiss Healthcare Sytem: Part I, and Part II). Still of all the countries with universal health care, Switzerland’s is the most market-oriented and merits discussion. Switzerland’s health care spending as a percentage of GDP is second only behind the U.S. (11.6% of GDP for Switzerland, 15.3% for the U.S. according to Frontline), yet the government pays for very little of this funding. The Swiss system is similar to the “managed competition” health care plan proposed by the Clintons in the early 1990s.

Percent Insured. 99.5%. Does this mean a mandated system system would lead to universal coverage in the U.S? This is unlikely. In Switzerland, a mandate for auto insurance has nearly 100% compliance, but in the U.S. the auto insurance mandate’s compliance rate is only around 83%.

Funding. Insurance is purchased by individuals. Individuals generally must pay the full cost of premiums, but the government helps to finance insurance purchases for the poor. “These subsidies are designed to prevent any individual from having to pay more than 10 percent of income on insurance,” and one third of Swiss citizens receive this type of subsidy. Thus, the Swiss government only pays for 24.9% of health care costs (compared with 44.7% in the U.S.).

Private Insurance. All insurance is private insurance. However, insurance companies are mandated to offer the same “basic benefits package.” Some physicians operate outside the negotiated schedules and individuals are beginning to purchase supplemental insurance to cover the cost of these higher cost physicians. Some estimates claim that 40% of Swiss citizens have purchased supplemental insurance.

More: /


I am going to start posting universal Health Care information here, that way it does not sink so fast. I like posting it in GD, since so many more people see it, but it just gets lost to fast.
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Posted by and-justice-for-all in Health
Sun Jun 28th 2009, 05:45 AM
by architek, Mon Mar 09, 2009 at 06:27:07 PM EST

Salon has a good article about the ugliness of the US healthcare situation and how it could possibly be this way.

It's entitled "The questions our healthcare debate ignores".

"Last month, the Paris-based Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development issued the latest in a long series of reports on our wasteful and cruel practices that ought to awaken a sense of national embarrassment."

DEPRESSING fact that is mentioned NUMBER ONE: "Among the OECD's 30 members -- which include Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, the Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, the Slovak Republic, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom -- there are only three lacking universal health coverage. The other two happen to be Mexico and Turkey, which have the excuse of being poorer than the rest (and until the onset of the world economic crisis, Mexico was on the way to providing healthcare to all of its citizens). The third, of course, is us."

Here is the actual report from the OECD web site: ...


Cross post from GD I wanted to add to my journal.
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I think we all know what drives this country into a wall, the same thing over and over again..Profits. American greed is prevalent in many, if not most, sectors of our industries and this includes health care. Which, to me, is one of several sectors that should in fact not be for profit.

I would like to say "why do we learn the hard way?", but the fact of the matter is, that WE did not decide how our health care system was to be ran. Instead of learning from those countries that made universal health care a priority and a not for profit system, our fearless leaders chose to do the complete opposite. If some one is doing something that clearly works and works well, it is a good idea to follow suit and loss the macho bullshit.

Here are a few perspectives on some other countries Universal Health Care Systems, most people here are aware of this already but some of you may not be.



Sweden: /


Saudi Arabia:






For any Senator, especially for the Cons, to tell us that Universal Health Care is a "no" is complete and utter bullshit. It is sad and appalling that this this country is ran by corporations and not its citizenry. For Reps to deny us all Health Care for the sake of profits, when it is very much obtainable, is equivalent to murder.

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Posted by and-justice-for-all in Atheists and Agnostics Group
Mon Jan 21st 2008, 02:39 AM
My story is rather short, since I was never indoctrinated and was never made to attend church I never received the full effect of religion. I am greatful my parents were never church goes, even though my grandparents were, for some reason we never attended church.

My mother said that we were supposed to be Baptist, but even as a wee lad I do not recall ever going to church. While growing up, my religious aunt would take me along with my cousins to church functions when I stayed over. But that was not on a regular bases and it was never for regular service.

As I write this, the more I think about it, the question comes to mind, why didn't my mother send me to church? I need to ask her this, I am sure there has to be an underlying reason for it. But none-the-less, I am thankful she did not send be church, what kind of mindless drone would I have become if she did?

Even though I never was indoctrinated with the poison of christiandom, my friends all seemed to have some sort of 'religiousness'. They were not hardcore or anything and never professed it really, but it came to that I had to have 'belief' in something dogmatic. During high school I did goto a couple of church services with a friend or two, one was Catholic and the other was just general christian something or another, I do not really remember simply because I was just not interested whats-so-ever.

Anyway over the years a pondered over the superstitious and what it might mean to me. My Mother even stated that "I never believed in that kind of stuff." Which, for as long as I can remember, has been my entire life. For the longest time I too the Agnostic route, The 'I'm o scared to make a decision' position. Simply for that very reason, but also I was not to clear on what 'Atheist' actually meant. It was not something, that at the time, I was familiar with. I was still trying to find a spot for in the religious world, much to my luck I never found one.

Religion has always appeared to be phony and wants you to submit to something that they can not prove to you exist. 'Come and pray to our invisible friends' and while your at it 'give us some cash.' A couple of years ago I made a friend that was reading about Satanism, I started to read about from this site and that site, after awhile of reading into it I hit a wall....The wall of reality. At the same time I was also dabbling in Wicca, something that another friend was into. It's funny that Satanism lead me to becoming an Atheist, but what ever works.

I did not practice any of it, but just the reading of it made something come together in my mind. I realized that it is all rubbish, all religions are nothing more then something for some one else to have power over you. To mislead you into believing none sense, rather then the reality of just how the world and the universe works. That to me is lying.

Now, I am a very vocal Atheist and if a religious person was to question me about this, I would not with hold anything. I am not shy about it either, I say I am an Atheist without seconded thought, like telling someone my name. Once you make your stand and not let the religious push you around, they tend to leave you alone. But you have to have the fortitude to do so, it's not as scary as you might think.

So come out and stay out.

"Gods don't kill people, people with Gods kill people."
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Posted by and-justice-for-all in Atheists and Agnostics Group
Mon Sep 03rd 2007, 05:09 AM
When it comes to washing away silly stigmas, it is not going to be a pleasant experience for the one who has subcribed to the ideology that is now under scutany. Why would it pleasant? and why should it be?

Raking those religious ideals over the coals is something that is far too long over due, when giving a fully free end opinion about it is expected to be as they think it should be and not as you feel it deserves. "You can not say that" and "you should not say this" blah, blah, blah, again your right back in the corner they want and think you should be in, giving them what they ask for.
How is that making any difference? How could it be possible to get anywhere, other then stagnation, from that aspect? It is nothing more then treating religion with kind hands, the very thing they have been given for centuries.

I wish I could apologize for things I have stated, but I can not and I will not do so. Even with some Atheist here, it as though they feel they have to give some special consideration for moderate religious belief, the very coal that feeds the fire of religious fundamentalism. "If I ever told so and so that in the flesh it would the last time I would do so", simply because I offended someones idea. Well, it would not be the last time I would say exactly how I feel about the issue and I would not be in anyway swayed from doing so.

Moderation and the unwillingness or fear of dissenting someones religious ideology is a major problem and one that must be got'en over. Otherwise, it will never end and will continue to be this 'Hands Off' matter, then we will be right back in the dark ages. Here it is the 21st century and the planet is inhabited by(a large percentage of)delusional beings who take things on 'faith', think they are being watched, their prayers get answered, the universe was created with them in mind and the list goes on.

No, I do not offer apologises. but I am willing to admit I was wrong if there is any hard evidence to convience me other wise. Until that evidence is given, religious ideologies will get no special treatment from me.
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Posted by and-justice-for-all in Atheists and Agnostics Group
Tue Feb 20th 2007, 02:37 AM
Dawkins is much more insightful then Harris is, in my opinion. I like Harris, but lately he has been a bit odd or I just simiply do not get what he is trying to say. But, I like Dawkins and his approach to the problem, which is religion and its effects on the world.

Moderates, as I understand it, are aiding the felones so to speak. They think they are not involved, but the reality is that they are directly involved by making it OK to believe in the ambiguishly improbable and unprovable. I do have a friend who "believes" in a way that suits her needs, she is not a Fundamental, Theocratic Dominist in the least, but does consider herself a Episcopalian. She is a free spirit that enjoys the things life has to offer without much restraint nor does she live in that paranoid state that the serverly diluted religious wack-jobs are always in. So, I think of her as a moderate who clearly understands that ones religious perspective is a private affair and she keeps it that way. There is no boasting about it or conversion attempts, she just believes is a supreme being, even though I think she is far to intelligent to be playing pretend and that deep down, she knows there is no such thing as an omnipresent being watching her every move, because she would be giving him/it a grand show indeed.

But, that would be the acception I assume, which is rare in the believer scheme of things. Moderates do however continue to make it OK to believe in the invisiable or for adults to play pretend. A planet populated with delusional beings is NOT a good thing, moderates continue to allow others to carry on in that delusion of wishful thinking and supress reality with miscomceptions about the world and the universe in which we live. Once one sees just how small we really are and where we are in the universe, one can then appreciate the opportunity you have to live and observe the world. Believing is just a laymans way of (mis)understanding things, praying does not get you what you want or perpetuate miracles, because if it did then there would be no sickness, war, or staving children in the world. If praying works, then they all need to pray to end suffering but they do not. Why? because its all a load of bullox and they know it...Ask a believer to cut off his right hand and then pray to Gawd/Jeebus to grow it back. I bet they dont believe enough to cut their hand off.

Moderates are tricky, agnostics are moderates as well. People who believe in Ghost are moderates too, but the reality is that its all bullox that are childs play and adults need to grow out of the religious security blanket and come to reality as they did with Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy.

Religion is the plight of the world and a hinderence upon society, they only thing religion is doing is causeing distress. In due time we will either come to understand that religion no longer serves any purpose what-so-ever or we will parish from it.

I can more so understand why people seem to have a need to hang on to this wishful thinking mentality. Humans only differ from their animal counterparts due to how our brain developmed, but behavorial functions are the same, group interaction and communication is improtant with humans and many other species. We all want to associate with people who share a common interest with us, its tribal and primitive but it helped us to survive thus far.

Religion had once played the role of the "glue" that helped keep groups together, always lead by the one who seemed to understand the misunderstood happenigs of the natural world, the shaman or medicine man provided those answers. But before all that, hominids figured out that working with others benefited to the survival of the entire clan, wortking together was the "glue". These developments were due to natural selection and the genes need to evolve its survival machine(s). Genes are what drives us and those genes want to survive no matter what.

If people could come to together in the sence that many do in religious terms, to solve the overwhelming problems we face as a species we would have virtually no problems to contend with. Take all the time, energy and resoruces used in religious functions and add them all up, then apply them to say ending the Dafur crisis and there would probably be no Dafur crisis. But the Shaman have misguided people in order to propagate an agenda with money at its base. money is a funny thing because like all the other materialistic things one accumilates over the span of the 30,000(on average) days one is here, you cant take that with you either. I find that leaving solutions or resolve to global crisis to be much more of a legacy then hording cash is.

I understand that by allowing the ideology to continue it will never truely resolve itself, its hard to look at a moderate and say "Your contributing to the problem, please stop." however if that same message is delivered in a manner that is not so offensive and you can get them to understand the distress that religion is causeing in the world, they may realize that as long as their belief is held privately and they act to correct the fundamentlist cancer that has been spreading like a wild fire accross the globe.

People seem to forget quite to easily that we have no where else to go, this Earth is it for quite some time to come and even when that time comes to pass where we reach Mars, it will not be habitable for decades after. We have to coexist, we do not have a choice unless we annihilate ourselves and the only ones I can think of that would pick the latter would the religious fundamentalist whom on both sides wants to remove the other from existence, for what I ask? To prove that one ideology is better then other, even though they are the same ideology?!

Moderates are a difficult case to crack, getting them to understand that "believing" is "make-believe" is essential to over coming this issue. They dont believe in Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy nor do they believe in Odin, Freya, Istar, Isis, Ra, Zeus or any other non-exisistent deity. So, why then do they feel they have to hold on to this other non-existent deity who is no any different then the previous mentioned g-ds?

Children play pretend, grown adults should not.

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Posted by and-justice-for-all in Atheists and Agnostics Group
Tue Feb 20th 2007, 02:28 AM
Is it just me or is there really alot of Atheist about these days. Not just out, but outspoken and taking no religious bullshit. I for one agree, agree that its well over due for religion to get what it has deserved for a longtime, that would be a swift kick in the balls and smack over the head with reality.

Of all the time since I realized that something was amiss with the world and that I saw through mega-religion like it was an open window, I now feel that expressing distain for dogmatic delusions has come and needs to be brought all the way to the forefront of social consciouness.

Religion has had its time and is running its course to an immediate halt. It has, continues to do I will add, far more harm to modern society then it has contributed to. It has taken more then it has ever given, at the helm of this reverse Robinhood is hypocites like Dobson, Hagee, Perkins and Robertson to name just a few. Least we forget those wonderful Politicians whom share the same mental delusion as those shaman mentioned above that perpetuate global chaos on an unpresidented scale. As it is, one always seems to get worse right before they break their fever and that is what is happening now.

As we non-theist, as well as those who are tired of the dogmatic brain fuck and twisted manipulations of religious idiocracy, come to light and expose religion for what it really is. What it really is, is a waste of time and resorces. Not to forget that the three major religions have the same agenda, which does not include the other. Each one believes that their faith is to be the religion of the world, Chistiandom wants to convert Muslims and Islam wants everyone to accept their religion or die. Where as Judeism takes the Political route to their goals....Its all a sick and worldly destructive gave of "My religion can beat up your religion" and the cost, if this is left unresisted, is lives.

Relgious Dogma truely does halt progress. Progess is the one thing that relgious zealots fear more then anything, why is this? We all benefit from the progress made by Scientist, no one is left out. It is as though they are trying to cut their own throats with a dull knife, they can never succeed but they will nons-the-less scare theirselves permanitly trying and bleed quite a bit too. They, the "relgious", know deep down that their belief system is a shame and that the likelyhood of their being an invisible man in the sky, a rapture or a second coming is a farse. But like a crack addict hooked on the junk, they can not let it go, even though they know it is wrong and has no rewarding benefits. Both Crack addicts and religious worshippers experience the samething, a temporary high.

The best thing a person a do it accept the fact that they are no immortal. They must addmit to their own mortality in an honest way and not in a superstitious, dogmatic, unrealistic delusion. Once one comes to the reality of the fact that they only have 30,000 days on this planet with one shot, they will not spend their lives waiting to get to a place that does not exist, but they will cherish everyday even more so.

I can, without hesitation, say that there is no heaven/god waiting to codeem us to hell or accept us into heaven. How can I say this? Because there is no proof to support those claims, I as an Atheist do NOT have to disproof that there are no such things because there is no evidence to disproof. Ambiguity and Faith are not worthy of believing in the invisible and none existent, Faith is not proof at all.

A planet that is inhabited by a population of delusional beings is not a good thing. Try to imagine this planet with most of its residence being crack smokers, that is how bad it is with religion and the effects of this are obvious. Some tell me that their moderation of religion is harmless, but they do not do anything to combat the fundamentalism that has poisoned their faith and turned it into an excuse for making eveyone else who have to share this world, miserable. As I read in a Sam Harris article; Think of it like this. You plan a trip to Disneyland, you look forward to all year and when you finally get there, they entire park is over run with inconsiderate people who hold up lines at rides and have trashed the place. Which has ruined your entire trip and made it very unpleasant for you.

We all have a right to enjoy this experience called life and we all should show each other the consideration to allow everyone to enjoy it. No one has the right to take this experience and ruin it for others or intervene in others happiness. To say the least, that is exactly what religion is doing, Taking and not giving.

I long for hope that religion will come to pass and humankind will look back and say "What the hell was that all about.?" We have made ground, of all the deities still in service today there are only a small few left. Once society sees, as it has began to do, religion as it really is it will throw it overboard and leave it drowned. Religion is a burden to the world and allowing to drag everyone down with it is not acceptable.

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