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Klassic Katbert836 - Archives
The Cold
The cold, dark water surrounded the swimming bear, as it had from time-to-time throughout his long life. Always he would swim for a while, then eventually he would find ice after having found and eaten a seal or something of the sort. He was not a truly massive polar bear, and so he never found it necessary to find a very big piece of ice to rest on. That day there was no ice to be seen. That was nothing completely unusual, he had swum for plenty of days at a time before, but that had been when he was young and full of energy. Now as an older bear, he could not afford to take such risks. But he had no choice. He kept swimming for that day, and the next, pausing at times to regain his breath, or to trap a fish that swam too near the surface. Fate, however, granted him far too few of these mercies that were necessary if he was too keep swimming for long. And still there was no ice to be seen. He was just about to yield to the cold water when he saw a solitary piece of ice on the horizon. With his last reserves of energy, he struck out for his salvation. Although he was moving at a quite sluggish pace, he was satisfied that soon he could find rest. He had a glowing sensation that his tribulations of the past few days had been worthwhile. He came closer and closer to the ice, and finally he was on top of it. It wasn’t as big as it had seemed from afar, but the bear knew that it would have to do. He climbed atop the icy slab, shook the freezing water from his fur, settled down, and was asleep almost immediately. He was still asleep when his piece of ice (which had been a part of a glacier not so long ago), broke in half, sending the old bear into the arctic, watery depths. He continued to slumber as his lungs filled with water and he sunk down, down, down. A few hours later, the two halves of his ice had lost half their mass. Half a day later, they had melted completely, leaving a bleak, cold expanse of water stretching across the horizon.
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that the 10 commandments would be much more meaningful if they were a list of do's rather than dont's. This would make them much harder to follow, true, but they would have more meaning and people would not try to claim holiness based on a simple list of prohibitions.
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Most historical evidence suggests Jesus, or at least his original followers, believed he was a herald of the apocalypse, and that the Kingdom of God would arrive during or shortly after his lifetime. Hence why the gospels were not written down until several generations after his death.
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to force God's hand. That sounds like hubris to me.
And the Mahdi is not the "Muslim messiah". Only the Jews continue to wait for a Messiah, Muslims and Christians recognize Jesus as that person.
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"What God Wants, Pts. 1-3" By Roger Waters -Part 1 What God wants God gets; God help us all What God wants God gets The kid in the corner looked at the priest And fingered his pale blue Japanese guitar The priest said: God wants goodness God wants light God wants mayhem God wants a clean fight What God wants God gets Don't look so surprised It's only dogma The alien prophet cried The beetle and the springbok Took the Bible from its hook The monkey in the corner Wrote the lesson in his book What God wants God gets; God help us all God wants peace God wants war God wants famine God wants chain stores What God wants God gets God wants sedition God wants sex God wants freedom God wants semtex What God wants God gets Don't look so surprised I'm only joking The alien comic cried The jackass and hyena Took the feather from its hook The monkey in the corner Wrote the joke down in his book What God wants God gets God wants boarders God wants crack God wants rainfall God wants wetbacks What God wants God gets God wants voodoo God wants shrines God wants law God wants organized crime God wants crusade God wants jihad God wants good God wants bad What God wants God gets -Part 2 Do you believe in a better day Do you have faith in a golden way If you do then we must come together this day Come together as one united Television audience Brought together by the sound of my voice United united financially united socially United spiritually and all possible ways Through the power of money And the power of prayers What God wants God gets; God help us all God wants dollars God wants cents God wants pounds shillings and pence God wants guilders God wants Kroner God wants Swiss francs God wants French francs Oui il veut des francs francais God wants escudos God wants pesetas Don't send lira God don't want small potatoes God wants small towns God wants pain God wants clean up rock campaigns God wants windows God wants solutions God wants TV God wants contributions What God wants God gets; God help us all God wants silver God wants gold God wants his secret Never to be told God wants gigolos God wants giraffes God wants politics God wants a good laugh What God wants God gets; God help us all God wants friendship God wants fame God wants credit God wants blame God wants poverty God wants wealth God wants insurance God wants to cover himself What God wants God gets; God help us all - Part 3 Don't be afraid it's only business The alien prophet sighed The vulture and the magpie took The cash box from its hook The monkey in the corner wrote The figures in his book Crazed the checkout lady's fingers Flash across the till The captain posts The menu for the day And in banks across the world Christians Moslems Hindus Jews And people of every Race creed colour tint or hue Get down on their knees and pray The raccoon and the groundhog Neatly make up bags of change But the monkey in the corner Well he's slowly drifting out of range Christ it's freezing inside The veteran cries The hyenas break cover And stream through the meadow And the fog rolls in Though his bottle of gin So he picks up a stone That looks like a bone And the bullets fly And the rivers run dry And the fat girls sigh And the network anchor persons lie And the soldier's alone In the video zone But the monkey's not watching He's slipped out to the kitchen To pile the dishes And answer the phone To me, this song perfectly analyzes the main problem of organized religion: No one knows exactly what God wants. Throughout history, there have been people who do claim to know what God wants, and they have, depending on the times, been labeled either prophets or lunatics. Some of these people have taught peace, compassion, and all that good stuff, but there are just as many who misuse their supposed power by advocating war, intolerance and sometimes even genocide, claiming that is what God demands. To me, it really does come back to what God wants. We don't know exactly what it is, so we turn to human messengers, many of whom are well aware they cannot know what God wants, who use their authority to get people's money and respect. More deeply troubling is the fact that we cannot know whether a compassionate teacher like Jesus Christ holds more authority than someone like Joseph Kony, the leader of the murderous Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda. I'm interested in knowing how the religious resolve this problem for themselves, but any other kind of response would be greatly appreciated.
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The Dead World
I look out on this world, and I see Poisonous fruit dropping from dead trees Particles of dirt swirl through the smoky miasma Filthy fire flying from hazy mountains People once lived here, I suppose I know from the ruins: Inky glyphs smeared on dull metal Paper and plastic rubbish scattered through broken streets Building skeletons, bleached by the red sun And what happened to those who lived here? Did some see their failures, just before the end? Did some try to stop themselves when it was already too late? Did they realize that they had killed their home And themselves? The black sky shimmers, yet Offers me no answers. I hear a whispering, from a long way off The ghosts are speaking What will they say?
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But I would not say that Hitler - when he was using Christianity (or Bush* now) was necessarily a Christian. If you have someone who sees a religion as a tool to manipulate people and that person is using religion for his own gain - then I think that that person is no longer (necessarily) a follower of religion - but a user of religion. I would say Hitler was both a follower and a user of religion. They're not mutually exclusive. And I think that it's reasonable to believe that the person, Hitler, was NOT a "Christian" in the sense that he was NOT trying to follow the teachings of "Jesus". I think it is reasonable to surmise that Hitler was not concerned about others, he was not concerned about his relationship to any deities as he may have imagined them - if anything - it seems that Hitler was his own deity. And some say that Germany was his religion. You're right that he wasn't concerned in following the teachings of Jesus. But by your own admission, that does not exclude him from being a Christian. As for claims that Germany was his religion, or that he indulged in self-worship- they're speculation, as Hitler himself contradicted them numerous times. So say you have someone who sees through religion and sees religion (esp. Christianity) as the perfect way to manipulate people - why would you think that that person still believed in the religion for himself? Does it really make sense that someone would see through a religion so clearly to use it as Hitler did then (and as Bush/Rove/etc. do now) - at the same time embrace that which they see as just a tool. I don't see it that way. Once again, there's nothing mutually exclusive about it. Hitler seeing the Church as a way to control people does not make him a non-believer by default. What did Hitler believe? Who knows. I'm not saying he was an atheist or a deist or any other thing. I just don't think that someone like Hitler necessarily believed anything - except maybe that might makes right - and eugenics - and we don't really know what else. That would be correct. We really don't know. But since we have numerous records of him affirming his Christian beliefs, it's reasonable to assume he was a Christian. And while I think it's worthwhile for atheists to encourage people to question religion and esp. to question government leaders who use religion, I don't it's good to start demonizing people because they belong to a certain religious group (unless that particular group is responsible for encouraging atrocities) or the demonizers start to sound like the bad guys. IOW - that's exactly the kind of rhetoric that leads to problems. Look, all I take issue with is Christians using the No True Scotsman fallacy to place bad people outside the fold. It encourages an attitude of moral superiority.
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I'm reading Dostoevsky's "The Brothers Karamazov", and in it there's a very powerful passage where the elder of a monastery dies, but before he does, he relates his beliefs regarding God, love, Earth, and hell to his friends who are by his deathbed. He states that he believes that Hell is not a place of fire and brimstone, but that those who go to Hell suffer from an inability to love.
This made me curious: I know that conservative believers have a very cut-and-dried view of Hell, but how do religious liberals believe? Do you guys think hell is even real? If so, is it a place where the damned suffer eternally? Why would God send people there? Thank you in advance.
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God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we, murderers of all murderers, console ourselves? That which was the holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet possessed has bled to death under our knives. Who will wipe this blood off us? With what water could we purify ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we need to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we not ourselves become gods simply to be worthy of it? - Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science When Nietzsche said that God was dead, he was not talking of a physical death of God. Rather, he was making an observation that the humans of his time behaved as if God were dead, without fear of divine retribution for even great debaucheries. He felt that the idea of God was no longer capable of acting as a source of human morality. Humans would be no longer capable of believing in God or a divine order because they didn't recognize the concept anymore. Nietzsche thought that God's death had not yet been recognized by man out of a deep-seated fear or angst. He predicted that once it was widely acknowledged, people would despair, and nihilism would become rampant. However, the death of God would play a role in humanity's greater development. Once the Christian God, with his arbitrary commands and prohibitions, no longer stood in the way, humanity would have a blank slate. Nietzsche says that once humans turn their eyes away from a supernatural realm, they would focus more on this world and its value. A new morality would develop from this realization. This new stage of human development would be the Übermensch. Discuss.
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He has been very misunderstood since his time... I suggest you read some of his works. I would reccomend "Thus Spoke Zarathustra" or "Will to Power".
He has been labelled the Nazi philosopher, a statement which is almost the exact opposite of the truth. He was opposed to anti-Semitism, however works published after his death were edited by his anti-Semetic sister to make them appear to have that leaning toward that viewpoint. Here's a quote regarding Nietzsche and the Nazis: "Nietzsche hated German nationalism, mass movements, and socialism, so naturally, he was made the mascot of the National Socialist German Worker's Party."
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It all depends on how you define a Christian, of course. To some, but not very many, anyone who says they are a Christian is one, regardless of how they behave. Clearly, nothing in Hitler's behavior would make him a Christian "No True Scotsman" again, kwassa. The reason I trust that anyone who says they are a Christian is one is because that's really all anyone has to go on. Sure, you may think he never behaved like a Christian, but that begs the question of who gets to decide what behavior constitutes Christianity. Who is it? You? Fred Phelps? ]he was not active in the Church throughout his adult life. He was quite repressive towards many religious figures. Yes, however the German Conference of Catholic Bishops during the Nazi era saw fit to began their meetings with a "Heil Hitler". He and the Church, as well as many various Protestant sects, were just fine with each other. And I've never heard of any prominent religious figure who was oppressed by Hitler or even stood up to him within the Reich. Hitler really created his own state religion of Naziism. It was not an atheistic state religion, nor was it Christian, founded primarily on racial and nationalistic ideas. Although several higher-ups in the Reich wanted to replace Christianity with National Socialism, Hitler felt that all such attempts would be foolish, and never tried to create a state religion of any kind. Rather, he saw the Church as another way to hold sway over the masses. This "Hitler was a Christian" meme is a central agenda item of certain atheists who have a political agenda at stake; quite simply, to make Hitler's crimes Christian religious crimes. This is the real truth of the situation. There is little historical basis for this if the whole of Hitler's life and acts are considered. The transparency of this agenda is incredible, the false arguements easily defeated, yet it goes around and around and around on this group. This is only because it is so important to some atheists. Now you're just whining. I have never heard the blame for the Holocaust or the Third Reich being laid at Christianity's door. You're grossly overreacting. I wonder why so many Christians are offended by the fact that Hitler was one of them. We're not blaming all you guys for what Hitler did, but its very obvious from a historical viewpoint that he indeed was a Christian. Please, point me to any false arguments you have easily defeated in this conversation.
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From is many public statements concerning his faith in Christianity, plus the fact that most to all of his allegedly anti-Christian comments he never said, we have to conclude that he remained a Christian throughout his life. However, his Christianity was influenced a great bit by Odinism, and he only reconciled worshipping Jesus, who was a Jew, by a theory that said Mary was impregnated by a Roman soldier, thus technically making him an Aryan. So, Hitler's Christianity was certainly warped, just like that of Robertson and Falwell, we can't say that he wasn't a Christian.
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Here's mine:
"When all else fails, we can whip the horse's eyes and make them sleep, and cry" - The Soft Parade, by the Doors I'm told that this lyric was written by Jim Morrison as a tribute to his idol, Frederich Nietzsche. There's an apocryphal tale that Nietzsche's psychotic break was caused by seeing a horse being whipped across the eyes. The Doors' drummer, John Densmore, was very weirded-out by this lyric as well. Yours?
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It's been so long since I read HDM... maybe I should get to it again.
Ditto for me, but here's my second place: "Love the animals, love the plants, love everything. If you love everything, you will perceive the divine mystery in things. Once you perceive it, you will begin to comprehend it better every day. And you will come at last to love the whole world with an all-embracing love."- Fyodor Dostoyevsky
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but I agree for the most part with what that poster is saying. One of the most compelling reasons I turned away from Christianity in particular and organized religion in general is because it teaches humans that they need to be saved from ourselves. I think our species is just fine, it's just we haven't realized our potential to solve our problems. Also, organized religion, especially the Abrahamic brand, teaches people that it will all be better in the next life, which tends to make people lethargic in solving injustices in this life.
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Profile Information catbert836
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