I hope you'll take the time to hear me, and consider what I'm saying.
and yes, that does take 'faith' in you- because it would be simpler to just ignore you, or fire back with some pithy sarcastic reply that satisfies that animalistic need we all have to silence or discredit anyone who dares question us individually.

I didn't rec. the post because "it raises suspicions about other posters"- as a matter of fact, the way I read the OP is that we should be much slower to just fire off a nasty- negative reply to those who post what we may see as angry, over-the-top statements.

MineralMan pointed out that one of the best ways to destroy your opponent is to divide and conquer. People on DU get input and are influenced by all kinds of outside sources- A really big one is the media- be it the radio playing in a store, a newspaper headline on the news stand , ads that pop up on the internet, even the jokes of Jay Leno or David Letterman- if you listen closely, you may find that there is far more "politics" in our daily life than we realize. And we ARE influenced by it whether we think we are or not.


I look back at some of the attitudes I had toward GW Bush and his administration, some of the things I said and thought, and cringe. Not because he was a good president- (I don't believe he was) or because there weren't all kinds of legitimate reasons to be angry at what he did and encouraged others to do. Things that caused much suffering and cost so many people to die.

But I believe 'we' went over the top- we did to Bush and Co. what I see the Tea-party and the rabid Republicans doing to Pres. Obama and Democrats in general. The foolish nick-names, demeaning comments about him and his family. The cruel and intentionally destructive attacks that had little to do with policy, ideals or issues and everything to do with hate. That's an uncomfortable word for many, but that doesn't make it any less true.

I DO have 'faith' in the people of DU. We've been through a hell of alot over the years. There are people here that I don't agree with on many things, but I have to remember that they have a right to their opinion, and may actually hold what I'll come to see as a 'better' opinion- but NOT if I close my mind, judge them as 'them' and not as a person, like it or not - just like 'me'.

It's so easy to get caught up in the mob-mentality- it's easy when we are angry, hurt, disillusioned to just strike out at others. But in the end, I think it hurts ALL of us far more than it helps. Are "we" hoping to make this country a better place for everyone? Or are we just trying to advance our own personal agenda? No matter how good we may believe our ideas to be, none of us is perfect- if we can't at least join together on the basics. Respect for each other- the right for others to disagree without being dismissed as "them"- the concept that if we can't defend our perspective without needing to destroy a person, then maybe our perspective is flawed, or we aren't capable of explaining it clearly?

I've ranted on enough- thanks for taking the time to wade through this mess.

I "hope" for us all that we'll be able to find a way to work together for the good of everyone.

reading some of the negative, hateful, over-the-top posts here on DU.

Having said that, it is reading some of the posts which explain specifics and offering well thought out perspectives that I hadn't considered before or ever thought of that restores and nurtures my "hope".

My children and grandchildren deserve to have a chance at a future. I owe them that more than anything, and if we give in to despair and defeatism we are guaranteed to fail.

It also helps to put things in perspective. We could have been born into a village in Somalia, and be struggling to get our starving child to a feeding station- or have been one of the people on that island in Norway, or born as yet another female child to an impoverished family in India. We could have come into this world as someone like Jared Loughner, or Glenn Beck, or Rush Limbaugh- thinking /caring nothing at all the harm our big mouth and hate filled mantras promote- worse yet, believing we were doing what was 'good' and 'right'.

We weren't. Not because we deserve better, but because of pure dumb luck. As hard as life is at times, (and I'm not denying struggling and suffering) there ARE those who have it worse. If we allow ourselves to get stuck in self-pity and despair, we not only hurt ourselves even more, we hurt others around us.

Depression is treatable, and is nothing to be ashamed of.

I hope you are able to find some peace.

of what he said in that reply today. I am.

That answer spoke to what really is killing America imo. It's also part of what is really hurting DU as well.

We have come to see those who don't agree with us as sub- human. Not worthy, not equal citizens of this society. Sure, "they" do that all the time, but ya, know, it's depressingly clear that so do we.
I don't have to agree, approve, support, like, or tolerate anything Mr. Boehner champions, but that doesn't mean that he isn't operating from what HE- (Boehner) sincerely believes to be the 'right thing to do', or that he is the embodiment of evil. I don't "like" the man, I don't like many high profile 'Republicans'- but if that causes me to see or treat them as less than human, then I've lost myself in the process.

Isn't our challenge as representatives of the better way, to show by reason, personal example, and information, why our positions are better, rather than just trying to demonize those who oppose us? "NOBAMA's a Muslim" bullshit? "The Orange man" childishness? What do we gain by that?

There was a time in history when Republicans and Democrats could disagree and fight for their ideals yet remain civil- there were exceptions, but now, as your OP so sadly reveals, it's the exception that rules.

The concept of treating others the way we'd like to be treated isn't supposed to be a license to excuse doing harm to people that harm us, but rather a caution to us individually to live our talk.


maybe i'm doing nothing more than babbling to myself here, but I heard something in that reply by the Pres. today, that hit home in an uncomfortably profound way.

at it's best, it is applied to "those" who we may not really like very much.

Like those who think differently than us. We like to pat ourselves on the back and claim that the people we empathize with are more deserving/in need of our attention or thoughts than those we find it difficult to empathize with, but what do we accomplish with that?

If we can put ourselves in the place of those we see as our 'enemy' maybe we can actually respond to the issue in a way that actually helps the vulnerable in the long run?

I can't articulate this the way I wish, but the idea of posting about empathy and then condemning a suggestion that people "talk rationally" about something we feel strongly about seems almost laughable- if it weren't so sad.




oh well

but that doesn't seem to stop people from using this meme.

sorry-

our poop stinks too.

I believe that Liberal ideals are far less selfish and cruel than Conservative ones, but we, as individuals are all prone to the same personal failings. Claiming that we aren't is prejudice and bigotry imo.

I think he said just the opposite. He wasn't happy about extending them even temporarily, but the republicans won't budge without their holy grail.

The way I see it is that if they can obstruct UI benefits, then more people will be unable to feed, clothe and house themselves let alone keep up with their bills. Our safety nets are strained to the breaking point now, and are looking for ways to trim people that are already in the system.

The 'bits' of money that would flow back into the hands of the lower/middle income people from some of the other aspects of the deal would go back into the economy and keep things flowing which should help to keep the fragile recovery we have going.

I see the republicans as being willing to really hurt the average American. They as a political force, don't really care about anything except those who have plenty of money and power already. They want tax cuts and programs to protect their assets.
When they bully their way through and the things they've done DO begin to disturb the public, the republicans point at us and play innocent. And they get people to follow them???

I don't think the republicans will be successful in dismantling SS. As stupid as many of their followers are, there are just too many who rely on their SS to live.-

Pres.Obama is faced with a choice of bad and worse imo. I don't for a minute think he 'likes' this plan, nor do I, but it looks to be the only real way through this mess.

people feel guilty or at least uncomfortable about their own selfishness, imo.

If we could reverse this trend, it would be selfish people who would be alienated I believe.

Subvert the dominant paradigm

to say Thank You for being so encouraging.

It's easy to be discouraged, to look at the hurdles and recall past failures and just say 'it can't ever work'.
Hearing you so obviously content and successful in your adventure, has given me a much needed glimmer of hope.



thank you for that-

may you continue to prosper.

but one that has been really troubling me more and more.

Do we still have enough in common... the Republicans and Democrats, Progressives and Conservatives to continue to live together as ONE Nation?

Sometimes it seems like the divide is just too wide between our ideals. Especially with the kind of rhetoric tossed around. How do you view the prospect of anything other constantly fighting for political control- with little or no time when America is really "United" by something more than just words?

I'm not advocating ANYTHING- I'm searching for reasons to believe that my kids might truly have a better future?

Anyone have some words of wisdom to share?

excellent post Nance-!



K&R

more about you than you than you may realize.

The entire concept of "health care for all" is one which is embodied by the need for empathy- the need to 'do the right thing' even if it costs you- and you don't personally benefit.



Just because something is unpopular, and difficult doesn't mean you should avoid doing it. ???

best answer would be to say that it puts what this man did in a catagory that makes it particularly wrong.

Like calling the murder of Matthew Shephard a "Hate crime". It was a murder- a murder that needs to be singled out for the particular- 'wrongness' that it was. To send a message to those who might be inclined to follow in the footsteps of the killers that they would not be doing something 'noble'.
There are far too many angry, frustrated people in this country who listen to the media and Palin/Limbaugh/Beck/Tancredo stoke their hatred and prejudice- Setting Stack's actions apart as MORE than a frustrated mans suicide (which it was- he murdered an innocent man simply because he was in an IRS building) and DE-ligitimizing 'stigmatizing' his action as particularly wrong, sends a message to those who are saying things like "Sometimes the tree of liberty needs to be watered with he blood of patriots and tyrants" and "real American Hero"- that it is neither "patriotic" or justifiable.

Does that help answer 'why'?

the two are NOT mutually exclusive imo.

I understood and empathized with the mindset of the 9/11 bombers-
I cannot condone what they did, but I can understand the mindset that blinded them to the hell they intentionally inflicted on their fellow humans-
It was STILL 'terrorism'-

Joe Stack could have blown his brains out at home, he could have hung himself, hell, he could have torched himself on the stairs outside the IRS if he needed the attention- but he didn't. He made a very calculated decision to not simply end his life, but to HARM OTHERS on his way out of this world- and his message clearly speaks of his desire to go out with a big-show in a twisted attempt to CHANGE the actions of others. Isn't that terrorism?

from google:
terrorism /t'erərɪzəm/
Terrorism is the use of violence, especially murder and bombing, in order to achieve political aims or to force a government to do something.

Joe Stack wasn't just 'tired' of struggling- He had an agenda.

I have compassion for his despair- but that doesn't change the harm that he did to others(smaller than he'd hoped)- or the effects his public display will have on others who are teetering on the edge of doing something similar-

allows them the illusion that they truly care about the well being of others, particularly others who are seen as vulnerable.

I've noticed that many of the hot-button issues that are used to rally many "conservatives" are issues that require little or no sacrifice or effort on the part of the supporters, other than telling other people what they cannot do, and claiming that the actions they stand against are somehow 'threatening' to them and to society.

It seems to me that there are many 'liberals' who support causes which they don't stand to personally benefit from, and which often involve a ...'burden'? .. 'sacrifice' ? in terms of taxes, action, or cooperation and do so willingly for the good of others and society at large.

There is also the "innocence" factor- some see a fetus as "innocent" but a new-born is 'someone else's responsibility' and no longer an easy 'ephemeral' cause to champion. I think some people DO "put a face" on a fetus, and when the newborn shows up, with it's own individual personhood- crying, needy, and fragile, they loose the allure.