OBAMA IS NO THREAT TO ANY POWERS, SPECIAL INTERESTS, OR ANY CONSPIRATORIAL PARTIES.

Why? Obama is knee deep in all those interests you naively believe have no hold over him. Even in your response, you ADMIT that Obama has "moderate" policies, but without REASON, HOPE he will preside in a manner, absolutely inconsistent with his stated policies. What gives you that absurd belief? Sometimes, some things are exactly what they appear to be.

His conduct in Congress and in the State legislature, do not depict a rebel, a rogue or a even a squeaky wheel. Whether or not you Obamites can see it or not, Obama has only a wafer thin difference from Hillary. To Edwards Democrats like me, you are both right of center.

Obama will still be beholdin to special interests. To believe otherwise is to govern your future based on wishful thinking. Then again, isn't that the Obama mantra?

I remember you when....you were an Edwards man, like I still am. I respect you greatly, but in reading back your response above, you GAVE NO ANSWERS TO IRIS, ONLY EMPTY REMARKS.

You see, there is nothing there, there. What is there is just the purposely BLANK SCREEN of rhetoric, for which people project their own meaning. Why do you think so much goes in the unanswerable category when people at these rallies are pressed for content.

This is truly sad.....

Think about it.

When someone casually greets you on the street, most people reflexively answer great, when asked how they are doing. Are you really doing great? Or, is it just that no one has the time to hear you list your complaints, so it's easier to respond formulaically.

When Obama supporters are queried about their candidate, you can most surely expect REFLEXIVE responses as to how great he is, what a source of inspiration he is, that he brings hope and change, which no one else is able to do. You will find that most Obama supporters are short on details and thin on specifics. These are clearly not the defining nature of the usual supporter. The most reliable response you will get, if you ask for specifics is a LINK, always a link, to some page that will describe in general terms, what Obama plans to do on any given issue.

Unfortunately, those Obama links never provide details or specifics, but actually raise more questions. Most people with an inquiring mind, would recognize immediately that "Obama plans on making more jobs available", is a paragraph heading, not an answer. How will he make more jobs? What are the specifics of the plans? Who will administrate this program? In other words, all the details which suggest whether or not the plan could ever practically work are missing. The answer is a NON-ANSWER. That makes Hillary and other Dem supporters angry at at a perceived lack of substance.

Which brings me to the turmoil roiling here everyday at DU. Bring your saber and rattle it loud, as one side after the other sends salvos over the metaphorical wall at each other. Obama Camp at Hillary, Hillary Camp back at Obama and on and on it plays out with nothing but pyrrhic victories or bragging rights.

I make no bones about my dislike for Obama. That perspective is borne of the fact that I always opted for the thinking method, am immune to manipulation on any level, and can discern it a mile away. In my view, Obama is all fluff, no substance. His supporters, unlike Hillary's, spit euphemisms about "hope" and "change", which are merely their own projections on a blank screen. Details would nullify that effect, so Obama leaves his platform open to only soaring platitudes of fill in the blanks.

You would think that a candidate who says there is too much acrimony in politics, too much negativity in politics, too much cynicism in the world of politics( I have seen certain DU members quote this one in their sig lines ), would engender PEACEFUL, HAPPY, WELL-WISHING supporters, who in emulating their candidate, would be averse to harsh rhetoric.

You would think.......

But, the reality is that Obama supporters have some very unusual ways of demonstrating the rebirth of optimistic politics, different from the contentious ways of the past. They demonstrate this new way by inventing ever ascending degrees of bloviating, hypocritical, verbal assaults against anyone who doesn't get with the Obama Program. Is this the peace a so-called Peace merchant inspires?

Now, don't go playing the pointing Hillary card, Obamites, as no one ever accused Hillary of being a peacemaker or positive campaigner. So, playing the REFLEXIVE, "well Hillary does it", doesn't cut it with this EDWARDS guy. Try for once, to answer a charge, without pointing to Hillary, as it is Obama that is hailed as the new and fresh face of happy politics, not Hillary. Hillary, whether you like it or not, is about competence, and that is the avenue of righteous attack.

So, how can Obama be a UNITER, not a DIVIDER, as someone no one knew suggested he was 8 years ago named Bush did, if he causes such a divisive and acrimonious atmosphere here at DU, where we are all DEMOCRATS????!!!

Sorry, but if anyone told me 4 years ago, the Democrats were going to field a nominee, after the unapologetic and unashamed divisive politics of the Rethugs, who would reach out to Rethugs, at the expense of the traditional core of the Democratic Party, it's left wing, I'd say you were NUTS!

Who knew? Who knew that so many FIRST-TIME voters with no activist bona fides would opine that a Democratic candidate should be a peace-maker...not within his own Party which he is ripping apart, but with Republicans, to whom pandering for votes might insure a win.

A win. All I ever see Obama supporters say is that Obama will win. but, the most important question is always left UNSPOKEN.

AT WHAT COST?????

Do you really believe that anyone who runs as a moderate, is actually going to bring about "CHANGE". A firebrand might, like John Edwards, but not someone who believes in sitting insurance carriers and Republicans and Corporations around the same table, to work out differences.

And here is where I part ways with my DEM brethren on the subject of near CRIMINAL NAIVETE! I have worked in the litigation field for fifteen years. If I have learned anything, it is that the only way to beat the financial industry, corporations or insurance carriers, is at the tip of a metaphorical knife, not with an outstretched hand. I'm sorry to break it to you, naive ones, but that is how the system is currently geared, and the only way you will ever change it is through attacking these leviathans, not making nice.

So, what effect will Obama have in a General Election? If the same supporters and DU members here think the Primaries reflect what will happen after the Convention, then you really have to learn the hard way. There will be no glossing over defects by the Rethugs. There will be no protection from generalities for plans. Specifics will be demanded.

Anyone who goes to answer a question about Obama and breaks into GOBAMA, MOMAMA, FOFAMA, will be deemed LUNATIC. In fact, the only way Obama would receive a free pass, if he made it that far, is because the CORPORATISTS who run this Country think he will be better for their business than the Republican.

When that happens, it truly will be time to worry. Why? It means there is no viable alternative to Rethuglican rule, which opposes business and the depersonalization of the person and world. It means that we would have sold out for no more than a human lottery ticket, hoping for a change, to win.

As William Butler Yeats so eloquently stated:

"But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly, because you tread on my dreams."

This quote appears in my sig line, such is the power of having dreams. Dreams, properly channeled, can be transformational, transcendent.

On the other hand, dreams which are predicated upon mere manipulative speech and a marshmallow foundation, will never stand the test of time or the harsh realities they try to hold at bay.

It is the latter, which precede a fall from grace, and leave those who were along for the ride, with a pounding headache and a bewildered countenance.

John F. Kennedy was an American original. There were no other Presidential candidates who preceded him, that spoke in lofty terms , using the imagery of imagination to energize his supporters. However, Kennedy did not deliver a BLANK CHECK of only hopes and dreams, but gave his supporters a SECOND message; that there was a price to be paid for the dreams to which they aspire. The price for those dreams was a commitment to be better citizens.

"Ask not what your Country can do for you, but what you can do for your Country".

That phrase was understood and comprehended by that generation and the young, to mean a commitment to the needs of the poor and lowest members of society. Internationally, it meant the creation of the newly minted service, "The Peace Corps". This gave an opportunity to idealists to sacrifice their free time and give service to the weak, poor and oppressed of the World.

Kennedy's era, was not an era of ME,ME,ME.

Turning to Barack Obama, there again is a clarion call to "HOPE and DREAMS". In a landscape littered with the sparse and destitute Bush legacy, bereft of any tone of uplifting message, these words fall like golden rain, on a parched desert of thirsty citizens. Predicated on a hopeful message, like Kennedy, to accompany a campaign to help people, the message would be one that truly spoke to a new way of seeing our ills, and of working together to accomplish goals that furthered COMMON problems, or those that reached OUTSIDE of the community we live in.

Thus, we come to look at what Obama is offering.

In researching Obama ( yes, once upon a time people actually looked into what a candidate stands for and what their history is, without joining based on mere entreaty )it was said that he always enjoyed making people happy. It was also said he learned early on that rather than deal in specifics, it was easier to dispense mere hope of something, than delivering something. Getting bogged down in specifics was counter-productive to obtaining support.

Maybe this explains my uneasiness with Obama, and many more like me, who are put off by Obama supporters who are unable to specifically describe his plans for ending poverty, regulating the credit industry, bringing back American jobs from overseas, and many more questions which define his priorities and character.

I was raised to be a critical thinker and to question everything. Law School will do that to you, by design. Does that make me cynical? Hardly. I'm a father of a precocious five year old and understand what it means to surrender thought for an appreciation of the simple things.

Being a father though, I am uniquely aware of the fact that there are STARVING children in our inner cities and in pockets such as Appalachia, where people are desperately poor. While we act as keyboard heroes and toast our candidates victories, as if they were our own, hundreds of thousands of children are going to bed hungry each night.

Where is their champion?

I was, and continue to be a supporter of John Edwards. I will vote for him in our New York primary on Tuesday. He made the fight against poverty his number one priority. Despite all the dreams that Obama offers to the first time voters he so specifically courts, I have seen no counter-balance to the price of such a victory. I have listened intently to this new group of voters, not that much younger than I am; but unlike me, I see and hear no sense of social responsibility, and no sense of accountability. They merely assume a victory, because they have a need to be a "winner". I have fought causes for victories that were personal and private, for the benefit of the many, not a shared gestalt of "we're winners"! It is the latter, which defined Kennedy, a call to social responsibility, that distinguishes Obama from the ORIGINAL JFK.

Obama's dreams and hopes are perfectly tailored to today's Republican reality of tax cuts for the wealthy and wars without personal cost. Once upon a time, there was a War in Viet Nam, with a DRAFT, that meant that the young of that generation were asked to pay the ultimate price. Bush, with his volunteer army of the poor and disadvantaged, has been able to sweep this war out of public consciousness. Latte liberals can banter about our victory to come, without once sharing the burden of their liberty with those less fortunate. Obama sells a dream with only an UPSIDE, asking nothing more than blind allegiance.

Has there ever been a victory so cheaply bought?

I am no more a fan of Hillary Clinton, for her corporate minded and inspired candidacy. She, like Obama, has too much business inspired policies, to be truly dedicated to the needs of those with the least in our society. Still, Hillary has shown she has some connection to the deprived. Moreover, she isn't selling herself on a DREAM platform. Those voting for her, at least KNOW why they are voting for her. Her supporters don't have to link to some website for answers.

It is said that a society can best be judged by how it treats the WEAKEST among it's constituents, not the richest or the strongest. If we allow children to go to bed starving each night, not in some far away place, but our own backyard, we should be ashamed to call ourselves LIBERALS. The liberals I know, understand the debt we have being better off than most, and therefore invest time and money in alleviating suffering. I don't do golf courses in my free time, I do soup kitchens.

Dreams do not come without a price tag. John F. Kennedy knew that , as well as the young of his generation, who were eager to pay the price of his unbounded optimism. Are today's youth willing to commit to pay a price for the dreams Obama hands away for free? If his supporters want a victory at all costs, they would be well reminded that Kennedy and his supporters in his era, built their success the old-fashioned way-THEY EARNED IT!

Anything less is just a fantasy.

Joolz, we are all individuals and therefore sense things in different ways. We each have a common historical perspective of the world, but our life experiences are different, therefore coloring ideology.

In MY view, I don't believe that our Party has the luxury of a "rebuilding" process. In fact, it has already been retooled, and you are looking at the result of that transformation. This is no longer a Party of the working class, or liberally minded, but a safe zone for moderate policies, designed not to offend anyone.

The last time in historical context, I saw such appeasement gone horribly wrong, was the Neville Chamberlin period in Great Britain before WWII. His ironically themed message was "PEACE IN OUR TIME".

In MY view, patronizing this pacification effort is anathema.I feel it a slippery slope of well-intentioned actions, that will result in the lines of demarcation between the Parties being reduced to mere nomenclature. As a staunch defender of core Democratic principles, I cannot watch the party be hijacked by the nouveaux sense of fealty to pocketbook over social empathy.

By the gauge of my pocketbook, I should be a Republican. I'm not. I have too much respect for my fellow man, am too philanthropic in spirit, to waste my hours on a golf course or sipping wine over vapid banter. We have starving families in America. That is a priority we all should share. Starving children do not have the luxury of our "rebuilding" process.

This Country is very sick. We have a new generation, the ones Obama is tapping, that have no sense of social responsibility and no sense of accountability. They merely assume a victory, because they have a need to be a "winner". I fought causes for victories that were personal, not a shared gestalt.

I will steadfastly refuse to join the ranks of automotons supporting Obama or Hillary. Those candidates do not speak for me or for people of lesser voice. ONLY as a last resort, holding my nose in a GE, would I pull the lever for the Democratic candidate. Believe me, the difference YOU see between the two parties, as presently constituted, is not as great as you think. Further, I applaud ROCKY and his appointment. I only hope he, along with others recently drafted to help, remember what it is that shaped their persona to be an Edwards supporter. Of course, I assume they will, but any changes they will bring are too many years away, to help those in need today.

Yes, I am ashamed my Party has acted to silence the voice of John Edwards. No other logical deduction can mean anything other than he was silenced. YOU can go ahead and excuse that. I never will. Nor will all the poor and disenfranchised, who don't have the luxury of an apology from some empty suit of the DLC, whose children go to bed hungry each night.

And by doing so, ask what the appropriate response is to what is happening in our Nation right now.

I have been dancing around this idea throughout many thread responses. Others here with an astute eye have also seen the same things that I see.

What do we do as good citizens, if we learn that our votes and our freedoms, are merely phantoms, illusory beliefs, as we are really operating under a strictly controlled environment?

Look at our "choices":

McCain
Romney
Hillary
Obama

Barring yet some other unforseen event, the four above represent the "pool" of talent Americans will be asked to choose from for POTUS in nine months.

While there is certainly experience and talent in the Democratic choices, look at who couldn't make the cut on the Democratic side:

John Edwards
Joe Biden
Chris Dodd
Dennis Kucinich
Bill Richardson

See a pattern there? Besides all being immensely talented and offering policies and programs that speak to a REAL, not FIGURATIVE, "CHANGE", they have all been thoroughly silenced in this campaign.It is my opinion, that the the two candidates left standing, are the only two who assure the continuation of the status quo.

What status quo?

The CORPORATE domination of the United States.

We are in a stranglehold over our society, held by a cadre of Corporations, who will not permit their dissolution, or even a weakening of that hold.

Yes, our politics now proves what I have always said.

There is no viable reason I can discern, for John Edwards to have suddenly left the political arena. NONE! He has cash, support, delegates, and everything necessary to play deal-maker at a brokered convention.

Add to that Obama's soon to be REZKO affair being highlighted and there is truly, some strong questions that demand answer.

WHY EXACTLY IS JOHN EDWARDS LEAVING THIS RACE???? EVEN JRE DID NOT EXPLAIN IN HIS TERSE REMARKS, ANY REAL RATIONALE FOR THAT DECISION.

If we don't have any freedom of choice, but the ILLUSION OF CHOICE, what are we to do? You can be sure that all of Bush's rendition plans, the eavesdropping, have all been constructed as contingency plans for anyone that gets too interested in asking these questions.

Afraid yet? You should be. If John Edwards can be silenced, we all can be silenced. If we are silenced, it has been by people who don't hold elective office.

Do you just want to be mere uninformed cattle, believing they we have a part in our Government? Can you even see that this is happening right under our noses, without any outcry, while Corporations control all of the messages and ideas?

I, for one, would like some answers. But, we will never get them , if we all acquiesce and fail to insist on an answer.

Even if you support Hillary or Obama and are happy with these choices, you ought to be concerned when a viable candidate leaves the stage, as John did, AND NOT ONE TV COMMENTATOR, ANYWHERE, ASKED , "WHY"? WHY, is the most obvious question, yet it was never discussed, only accepted.

So, as an experiment, ask yourselves, "why"?

Please, all smarmy non-thinking responses are only additional distractions, we don't need in this conversation.

*edited for spelling*

As an Edwards supporter, we know what a true fighter for the public good looks like.

The naivete of Obamites to the reality of the press creating his aura, only to send him a knockout punch is almost laughable, if it weren't for the subtext. Can't they see that the elimination and marginalization of QUALIFIED, honest, candidates like Dodd, Richardson, Biden and Kucinich, is a loss for the whole Party? No, they like their selfish candidate, don't realize that after the TRUE nemesis to the Corporatocracy, Edwards, is also eliminated, only two CORPORATE alternatives remain.

That isn't by chance! Do you really think Obama challenges the status quo? That is my complaint about him, his bashing Democratic core concepts and icons, while pandering to the Right for crossover votes. That is absolutely PATHETIC!

All of this sound and fury is worthless. Hillary has a guarded closet and her laundry was aired long ago. But, Obama hasn't seen a thing yet. While receiving his free pass to this point, he will be NAILED shortly ala Dean. I have forseen his "Dean" moment coming for a long time and tonight wasn't the only time you will hear REZKO. Its coming February 25, to KNOCK Obama out.

That is what is selfish about Obama. His timing stinks, and he doesn't keep promises, which is a CHARACTER FLAW, as is buying a house through a known influence peddler. You sow what you reap Obama Nation ( or is that abomination? ).You sow what you reap.

Unfortunately, you have forced your bitter crop on all of US!!!

I agree with the premise that we are cultivating the fruits of a longtime plan, hatched many years ago by those with a prescient knowledge of the future.

Unfortunately for us, those people worked for the interests that are antithetical to our cause. Television and the other media were recognized as vehicles for both numbing down sensitivities over time and of creating the minds malleable enough for manipulation.

In a sense, we few on this forum, represent the "Neo" of Keanu Reeves in "The Matrix". For some odd reason, maybe like me you share a "rebel" philosophy, we have refused to drink the Kool-Aid, are immune to media posturing and corporate backed manipulations. Whatever it is , it seems we clearly see the problem where others do not.

And this is an important point. When involved in threads like "Two Americas" points out, we will run into the opposite mentality which we share here. We will meet idealogues, deeply entrenched minds prone to the malleability we refuse to accept. I call it, "the talking to walls" syndrome, for no matter how clear and unequivocal the proofs, these people will just mot see it! Ever. So, your time and calm will be wasted on these people.

In some ways I feel sorry for them. They actually believe they are "thinking", when in fact they are merely spitting out facile platitudes they have assimilated, like the good little drones they are. On the other hand, these tools of manipulation are threatening my Democracy as much as those who have designed to take it from me. So, they are the enemy of reason and logic.

Eisenhower identified the enemy long ago and watching an old movie the other night on cable, "Rollerball", showed that some people foresaw the arising of the Corporate State, where Nations fall before globalization at the hands of a Corporatocracy. That group then numbs down the citizenry, like the bread and circuses of the Romans, with diverting games and distractions. "American Idol" anyone?

Well, I just want to say that I enjoy the LITERATE conversation I can have in this forum. This post, in GD or GDP, would be explosive, calling out every freak of the variety that "Two Americas" referenced. COGNITIVE DISSONANCE is a bitch, and the heads out there would throb from Truth. So, it is easier to dismiss intelligent arguments like the ones, without reading, I know "Two Americas" is posting.

In a way, "Two Americas", I was letting you know a few days ago, when in my thread about taking the gloves off, that you would find I was CORRECT, in assuming that the nice guy approach could fail miserably. Why? Therse ingrained and entrenched minds have been conditioned for years to be the way you found. You see, as a Trial Lawyer, I recognize manipulation from miles away and also know it's effects.

We reap what we sow. We are the unfortunate inheritors of an upside down world where non-thinkers, acting on knee-jerk reactions programmed into them, actually believe they are "thinking", when they are mere human "automotons", without critical-thinking skills.

I have often contemplated what could lead us out of this darkness. Any thoughts before I reveal mine?