and the enormous destructiveness of it, both then, and maybe more now, that once again, was enabled by a pathetic lap dog MSM and an equally pathetic and gutless Democratic Party 'leadership". We will be paying a steep price for that spinelessness and allowing that myth to fester and take root, for as far into the future as I can gaze.
One point I very much disagree with though: Those were as opposite of "miscalculations" as can be. Reagan's puppet-masters knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and not only did it work to their advantage, but probably to a degree beyond their wildest dreams as far as how many people fell for it hook line and sinker , and continue to buy into the mind-set and policies that are destroying so many who worship him, and enriching those who set it all up and continue to exploit the myth.

While it is a proven fact that the Bush junta raised "terror threat levels" whenever it served them politically to do so, that doesn't mean there aren't genuine dangers, and genuinely dangerous violent fanatics out there. We here at DU are rightfully furious with Bush for ignoring warnings about September 11th, 2001, yet it seems that many here simultaneously dismiss other warnings issued by those charged with trying to stop terrorist attacks from happening. Seems to me that those people want to have it both ways on this. If you dismiss out of hand every warning, how can you criticize Bush for doing the same?

but anyone that voted for that piece of shit Ray-Guns oughta be the ones feeling guilty . I guess the small percentage of people who were hippies and then turned into right wingers just were extremists in their inner makeup, and when they discovered some less than perfect aspects of 60's hippiedom (and we were nothing if not imperfect; we were after all just kids really; I still am constantly trying to learn and redefine exactly what I believe and believe in, although my core beliefs sprung from what I learned in and from the 60's) they ,I'm guessing, saw no shades of gray and responded to disillusionment, too many drugs etc., by swinging politically all the way to the other extreme. Just a theory or even a guess. From nothing but my own personal experience, as I and my old hippie friends approach or pass our mid fifties and beyond (I'm 59), I am pleased at the very high percentage that have , while making inevitable adjustments over the years, have lived, and continue to live their lives without abandoning the values we tried to live by back then.
I wish I had some anti-ROFL emoticons to cancel out the ones I posted disrespectfully in response to you earlier. I'm just overly sensitive to the disparagement of something very good and positive and utterly decent, if sometimes terribly naive, that I participated in, in my own insignificant way, that I see occasionally (but fortunately only occasionally) on DU . That disparagement is not, in my opinion, based on an accurate understanding of those times and of those who believed deep in their/our hearts that a better, more humane, peaceful way had to be found of living and relating to humanity and all living things and were groping in the dark for that better way. It is in the interest of the right wing to mock us and claim we all sold out etc, as if believing in peace, love, sharing, etc. is just a silly juvenile phase to go through before growing up and becoming a good responsible conservative. Did we have turncoats and sellouts among us? Hell yes, but again, from nothing more than personal experience, those numbers are much lower than the right would desperately like America to believe.
I don't think I answered your question at all, probably, but I hope my words have at least contributed something of value. abq e streeter / Ron

but at least in some ways , they didn't get away with it, except (and this is certainly a crucial aspect of it), they DID escape prosecution as well as keeping the knowledge of what they attempted to do from the history books etc. (and the successful hiding of this important part of history from the American people is a crime in and of itself) But at least the plot was thwarted at the time. Unfortunately, as we've seen time and time again, the failure/unwillingness to bring these people to justice left them and their political heirs free to do their dirty work at some point in the future.But at least that particular treasonous action was not able to be successfully carried out. I think the point of the post re: JFK, as well as my agreement with it, is that that time, they DID succeed. But yes, your point that they were also proven to be above the law in the FDR plot is well taken.

I don't so much concentrate on looking at the goosesteppers, as much as the ordinary citizens in the background; so many of them applauding what they're seeing ( in general; hard to discern specific reactions from this picture, but I'm sure many were watching with approval). I often think about this when I see pictures from the Nuremberg rallies, etc. The Nazis could not have inflicted their unprecedented destruction and suffering on the world without the support of so many of those ordinary folks like the ones watching here. The danger here is not only the Becks, Limbaughs, Palins and the rest of the organized hate machine, but to me, equally, if not even more so, the ignorant, easily manipulated followers . I am in agreement with some other DUers who have warned that we ignore or laugh at ,or even celebrate the tea-bagger element's takeover of the republican party, and so much of the political discourse, at our extreme peril.

for Milton Friedman and the Chicago Boys and their "free market" economic theories. I hope every last one of them, from Friedman and Reagan and Pinochet, to the lowliest soldier/torturer/murderer, rots in hell for this.

God bless The Clash for doing their little part to try to make sure Victor Jara and the rest of those brutalized souls are never forgotten.


On some level, I can sort of almost comprehend the bloodlust and greed and thirst for power of leaders who order this type of brutality. What I cannot ever wrap my mind around is how these individual soldiers who were the ones who literally, physically carried out the torture and killings, were able to come to believe that this was an acceptable way to live one's life. Have, or will, some of them be struck with terror themselves as their moment of death approaches, for the knowledge of what they've done. Or will/did they go to their graves believing what they'd done was justified, as apparently many Germans still did after the Holocaust? I just can't comprehend it no matter how hard I try.
And most Americans do not know any of this, and don't care. I remember being at a band practice and were taking a break and watching TV when Pinochet was arrested in London. I made a comment to the effect of thank God, and the two other guys watching with me, educated citizens, started laughing , thinking this was amusing that I actually gave a damn that this monster was finally going to answer for his crimes. Of course, as it turned out, neither of them had the slightest idea who Pinochet was, yet laughed at me for knowing and caring. This is what we're up against. Sorry for the directionless rambling; I still get viscerally upset at the willful ignorance of most Americans about the crimes committed in their name. That's all; thank you for posting those chilling words of Victor Jara.

notable and disappointing also is that many of these were for Democrats....Too much of the same old different sides of the same coin, and kissing the ass of the same money no matter which party you belong to in this big kabuki theater/dog and pony show of a political process.. I guess this is what professional lobbyists do, but I assume ( actually know) that Tony has the same progressive instincts deep down that John does, and I'm pretty goddam disappointed. Again, I'm guessing that somewhere deep down, he damn well knows better, but like so many who started out idealistic, I guess he got seduced by money and power. Just speculation of course, on his motives...

Criticizing many of the decisions made and directions his administration is going and having serious issues with the type of overly corporate- friendly people he has chosen to be his closest advisors is NOT hate. It is love for this country and disappointment borne from believing ,rightly or wrongly, but sincerely, that he and his administration are not doing anywhere near enough of the things that need to be done to overcome, as you accurately characterized it, the shit he inherited. I do have to disagree on this comment of yours; he knew exactly what he was inheriting; he is far too intelligent not to have known...Just my opinion, but I for one, am not a hater, nor are virtually all the other progressives I know personally who are so far terribly disappointed in many ( not all, by any means) of the things they've done ( or not done). I am just a patriotic progressive American who believes in my heart that this President and administration, are so far showing too many signs of being unable or unwilling for whatever reasons, to undertake the fundamental changes needed to fix a dishearteningly corrupt and rotting system; changes he promised in his campaign to be an agent of. Respectfully , to both you, and President Obama, abq e streeter

 
your two main culprits plus the appalling state of "news' media... and not just Fox, but with rare exception, all of it. The intentional and wildly successful dumbing down, that to me, really showed its face with the election of Reagan ( and actually, George Wallace was the harbinger of it). I guess I called the "idiots" the disease because they do , theoretically , have an opportunity to figure out what's really going on and start to defy it. Without them, people like Mack et al would have no public voice. Instead they embrace it with ,as you said, a pride in their anti-intellectualism. These despicable politicians are the symptom to me, because they are interchangeable and replaceable. If it wasn't Connie Mack, Bachmann, Palin, Cheney, and on and on,it would be someone else. That's why I see those voters as the disease. They are the ones that make the decision to make people like that their voice. I am not smart enough myself to know what to do about this, and I despair greatly over the future of this country. I never thought I'd live to see a level of ugliness and ignorance take hold to the extent it has. And for the most part, our party's leadership has, in my opinion ( I have no idea if you agree or not with this assessment) shown an unwillingness, inability or disinterest ( or all three) to grasp the depth of danger this ignorance poses.

Bob Dylan with The Band ,January '74...Opening night of his 'comeback " tour . No one really knew what to expect, and the world's music ( and regular) press was there; a picture from that show was the cover of the next issue of Newsweek. The atmosphere was electric...The show actually started a little sluggish until about the 4th song when The Band did one of theirs ( can't remember which song) and started rockin'...Dylan I guess caught the energy and after that it was magical. He did an acoustic solo set in the middle including Lonesome Death of Hattie Carrol and It's All Right Ma and the 20,000 people in The Chicago Stadium went nuts. Greatest concert I ever saw..........until....a year and a half later, when I saw

Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band , Sept. 75. at the Auditorium Theater shortly after Born To Run was released. I expected it to be great but was not prepared for how amazing they were. I can still remember the blood -red spotlight on Bruce , on his knees wailing at the end of Jungleland...Spellbinding...Also, he was really funny back then and some of his "shaggy dog" stories to introduce songs like the slow version of the E Street Shuffle, and Manfred Mann's Pretty Flamingo had people practically falling out of their seats from laughing so hard.
That was the greatest I'd ever seen until the NEXT time I saw them, Fall of '78 at the Uptown Theater. Over 4 hours, at least a half dozen encores, including Because The Night and when it was finally over, and the roadies were clearing the stage, no one had budged; everyone on their feet still screaming for more. Even by Springsteen standards, this one was incredible and remains the single greatest concert I've ever seen, even though I've seen Bruce a few more times over the years, and every one was great, but never better than those first two times.
Number 4 would have to be Joe Strummer at The Metro in 1999 or 2000...Why? because...it's Joe Strummer. I never saw The Clash, but at least I saw Joe and The Mescaleros. I was just visiting family in Chicago then, and luckily Strummer happened to be there. I only talked my friend Brian ,one of the few people I still knew besides my family , into going by offering to cover the price of his ticket if he didn't like it. When it was over, he thanked me for talking him into it, saying he'd "forgotten that there were still people with this much charisma playing rock and roll".
Probably a 20 way tie for # 5, but I think, off the top of my head, Mitch Ryder in both '78 and 79 and Terence Trent D'Arby ( this one was in Albuquerque, maybe about '88?) were both absolutely electric performers. Toots Hibbert and The Maytals in a legendary roadhouse in Golden, New Mexico was another that's right up there...( couldn't even guess the year, but The Golden Inn burned down in the early 80's so...)

but my original reply to the OP pointed out the "seething hatred" we who tried to really change things attracted. It's not surprising in a way, that we frightened and threatened the powers that be to the extent that they had to do every in their considerable power to discredit what we were trying to do and crush it, and us, in whatever way necessary. The hope and the change was absolutely in the air ; "blowin' in the wind". It certainly wasn't all the young people, there were and sadly, always will be, plenty of idiots like Dubya in every generation. But we were absolutely on to something in a way that America ,and perhaps the world had never seen, and it freaked enough powerful people ( as well as a still to this day easily frightened middle America) out that it had to be stopped at all costs. I found it an almost inexpressibly exciting, if ultimately terribly disillusioning time to be young, and anyone who was part of it knows what I mean, and I don't possess the literary talents to even come close to adequately explaining it to those that don't understand. "It's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll..."

Stunning amount of great music. So many great groups and artists at the very peak of their creativity... Exhilarating level of REAL hope and REAL change in the air,not coming from any politicians ( though there were some who WERE with us)but bubbling up from the younger generation with a feeling of solidarity and discovery of a radically new and at least hopefully improved way to view and interpret virtually everything. But with that exhilaration came a crushing devastation from all the violent deaths of the leaders that could have effected so much permanent change for the better ( I am thinking , more than any others, of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King Jr.). I still, as I approach my 59th birthday , viscerally feel the despair and bewilderment at the seething hatred directed at those of us who , despite all our youthful folly and naivete, gently and with love in our hearts, tried to show America that there was a better way than war, racism,greed, materialism, environmental degradation etc. Did many of us end up selling out; going over to the dark ( repub) side? Absolutely, but from nothing more than my own experience and my own eyes and ears, the percentage of those that did that is as overinflated as a Fox news teabag crowd estimate. So in some ways, it's not romanticized at all; it was a special time, but it was also a time of an absolutely devastating disillusionment or at least a backdrop to it. I hope some others here who are more eloquent than I( and that sets the bar pretty low) will weigh in on this too. But just speaking for my 60's teenage self, as well as looking back, it WAS a remarkable time.

 
for god's sake, Mr President...just FUCKING SAY IT. It's a blatant assault on basic American freedoms. And these hate merchants on the radio are not "problematic" , they're racist, hate-mongering demagogues. JUST SAY IT.Not just President Obama, but the entire oh so meek and polite "leadership " of the Democratic Party. Will they ever finally forcefully stand up to this shit? ( my personal answer: ain't holding my breath) ..Coincidentally I just was reading the Nazis' "enabling " laws today...Those were also ,I guess,just problematical and misguided...I'm an admirer of some things Mr.Obama has done but I'm so fucking sick of the fear of just telling it like it is.
And yes,I understand that as President, Mr.Obama has to choose his words carefully, but every act of appearing like a wimp in front of a bully just encourages more of the same, and worse. I've never heard of anyone ever stopping a mugging with a civilized, polite, admonition to the mugger that that perhaps his actions are problematic and misguided...We're being mugged more and more every day by these bastards, and all we can do is politely suggest that maybe that's not very nice?

It WAS absolutely a root cause there, and Chile and other places. And yes, the assholes that did the dirty work are to blame equally. If Marx had personally gone to Stalin and encouraged the communist version of the shock doctrine, then yes, he would have been guilty and had blood on his hands as do Friedman and the "Chicago Boys". I have never been one to subscribe to the theory that only the leaders are to blame. As someone who will never know how many family members were slaughtered by the Nazis, I have always bristled when I hear "Hitler did this" or whatever. It took countless average citizens who were willing to do their part in this incomprehensible atrocity, and in that way, I completely agree with your reply. But having studied a little of the history of the implementation of economic free-market "shock therapy", those who, like Friedman, participated in its imposition, also have the blood of innocents on their hands. Plenty of guilt, unfortunately, to spread around. Just for another example, how about the Central American right wing death squads? Trained at the School Of the Americas at Fort Benning. Yes, those murderous thugs in Guatemala, El Salvador etc are guilty. So are those who trained them here and so are the politicians that supported and funded that training...

"Badboy". Sounds so cute and lovable doesn't it? Just a clever little prankster with that mischievous twinkle in his eye.
"Progressives love to hate". Yes, we're all SO thrilled that vile racist hatemongers are polluting this nation with their poison. We "love" to hate them. Kinda like Goebbels being a propagandist the Jews just "love" to hate, or the KKK being "bad boys' in white sheets that black people "love "to hate...
And his "typically tough response..." Yep, no wimpy latte sipping liberal here, but a REAL man with "tough" responses.
Oh and yes, he's a "conservative". How in the hell far down the sewer will someone have to go for the MSM to finally just denounce them as neo-nazis or at least as blatant hate-mongering racists? My guess, unfortunately is that the point of no return may have been passed and the MSM will never do that anymore , because to recognize this wouldn't be fair and balanced. I truly believe if Hitler were around now, the MSM ( and not just Fox, but all the networks etc) would be referring to him as a "controversial conservative".