Certainly idea is to regain power - a return to POWER

Supremacist
Nationalistic
Anti-immigrant - which they see as an excellent "pressure point" everywhere,
including America

Some general ideas ... and this from "the Beast Reawakens" by Martin A. Lee -
but not exact quotes --

Nazi/neo-fascism is described as a supervirus which constantly evolves --

Neofascists will distance themselves from historical image of fascism--

Their purposes are camouflaged as they embark on the quest for power --

Self-portrayal as ...
"Protectors of Western European culture"
"Economic prosperity -
as method of elbowing their way into mainstream

Collapse of Communism triggered neofascist resurgence to Northern Hemisphere --

Re America --
A vibrant democratic culture would withstand neofascism -
However, uncontrolled corporate power has stifled democratic process

American militias groups - "Hitler was for gun control"
Have not excluded Jews or people of color/therefore, not a reliable litmus test
Reinventing fascism in uniquely American way

NATIONAL RESURGENCE THRU VIOLENCE

Former Rep. Newt Gringrich stymied a much needed probe into right wing paramilitary activity --


Generally patriarchal, control over others, exploitation, anti-female, anti-labor --

Pretty much what you see in the GOP -- sexist, racist, homophobic -- on and on --


I'm not familiar with what is happening in Germany at this time, however, there still seems
to be reported "deep-rooted xenophobia" -
Chancellor Kohl financed a NYC tourism office where employees were ordered to discourage
Jews, Blacks, Hispanics, and Asiatics from visiting Bonn Republic!

And, I think this is quite interesting . . .

The mass consumer culture is seen as a weakness in personalities with high dependency
needs and easily manipulated by commercial advertisers and political demagogues


See Odessa/Cedade/The org

I'd also recommend this book which I read some years ago -- and just happened to be looking
thru notes on it -- your library probably has it --



RE THE FINAL SOLUTION . . . I THINK YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THIS . . .

"Well, what do you really object to in my treatment of the Jews?
I have certainly been consistent -
I'm doing what the Catholic Church has already done for fifteen centuries --
The difference between the Church and me is that I am finishing the job --"

---Adolph Hitler/"Confronting anti-Semitism"

but the majority of organized patriarchal religion stands --
with one WHITE/ALL MALE GOD.

Also, as far as I know the Bible still stands -- certainly patriarchal --
and one of the most violent books ever written.

Vatican is still in business and the Pope still fails to acknowledge the full
personhood of females as it acknowledges the full personhood of males.
Additionally, Vatican still deals in dogma, dictates -- overturned liberation theology.
Brought Opus Dei back in.

Also, "Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are the license for the elite
to exploit nature, natural resources, animal-life -- and even other human beings according
to various myths of "inferiority."

These concepts are at the least authoritarian -- if not fascist.

Certainly not democratic --

Granted, would love to see women make swiss cheese of the whole thing.

This nation began with genocide vs Native American . . .
Later running "white settlers" in their territory and we call it our "heartland" now!
Slavery -- another 100 years of Segregation --
Taking over other nations -- Philippines, Hawaii -- War with Mexico for land --

The very beginning of the nation involved giving land and wealth to the elites --

I think most of us want what we've always wanted -- to live in peace with our families --
It is the few who desire control over others and great wealth.

Remember that royalty morphed into capitalism/corporations when we knocked down Kings.

Also, that this right wing propaganda reminds you of Nazi Germany isn't unusual -- the Nixon
White House spent long period of time studying Nazi propaganda/films.

Re this . . .
Christianity, a religion that where its founder was crucified for standing up to the corrupt government of his time, has morphed into a free market religion. It has been hijacked in every way that Islam has been hijacked by a radical fringe who take things out of context or make things up.

Our problems begin with patriarchy -- violent patriarchy.
They could not declare themselves "superior" to others -- they needed a "god" to do that
for them - so they invented a male god to do that.
The Bible was written to cement patriarchy.

After the New Deal and when the social revolutions began in the 1960's -- anti-war, pro-nature,
natural protective means of health, ending notions of anyone being "inferior" -- organic foods, breastfeeding, natural child birth -- celebrating normal human sexuality - challenges to organized
patriarchal religions -- and most of all generally challenging authority . . .

PATRIARCHY had to reestablish itself --
Since organized patriarchal religion is the underpinning for patriarchy, they first had to
reestablish that. That's why they've created this Fundi religious movement.
The GOP gave start up funds to the Christian Coalition. Other right wing monied folk helped
Dobson and Bauer create their right wing religious organizations. This didn't happen by any
natural means. It was created by the elites. As religion has always been used by them to
destroy other nations and to hold power to themselves.

Nor can they have a Jesus floating around who more resembles a "Commie" --
Much of former Christian teachings had to be reversed -- much as large parts of the Bible
are contradictory for the same reason.

US/CIA also created the Islamic Fundi movement in ME ---
We spent millions on printing and producing the vile text books used to teach violent notions
of Islam. At the end here I'll give you a like to the info on Afghanistan and the textbooks.
Again, none of this happened by accident -- it's been used to disrupt peaceful religions.



Generally I agree with your overall attempt here --

On the other hand, what I worry about is the entire planet --

Patriarchy is suicidal!


------------------------------------------------

FIRST PART OF THIS DEALS WITH HOW US/CIA CREATED TALIBAN AND AL QAEDA . . .
TO BAIT RUSSIANS INTO AFGHANISTAN . . .!!!


SECOND PART DEALS WITH THE TEXTBOOKS --



The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i... ...


---------------------------------------------------

SECOND PART --


The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.h...

First, every nation on the planet has been reporting for months to the US government
that you're coming -- you should expect that the airports are on HIGH ALERT and that
the US government is ready for you -- except . . . again, it's your lucky year!

Bush has been practicing "Operation Ignore" even when the United Nations Security Council
came to alert him in August just before 9/11 of the threats --
They also visited our intelligence agencies to ensure that they knew.
Operation Ignore continued, however --
Presume the hijackers knew they could count on that?

IF you want to use a plane . . . you have to hijack it --
do you really believe our airports are so incapable that there could be four simultaneous
hijackings?

Then, you'd have to worry about NORAD which runs down planes which go off course
or which are unidentified -- except on 9/11.

Now after you've picked the planes, you need to get actual hijackers in there --
and by the way, something like 10 or more of the alleged hijackers have been found alive --
and they have to be capable of hijacking the planes and flying the planes.
How do they get metal box cutters through screening?
Maybe someone plants them on the plane for them?

And -- these people have to be able to fly planes.
Not to mention being willing to kill themselves doing it!

Meanwhile, their best pilot couldn't even manage flying a small plane which he was trying to
rent. They are required for insurance reasons to make sure he could fly -- he couldn't!

Also -- definitely count on having picked a day when you really get LUCKY and the
Pentagon/military are running FOUR SIMULTANEOUS training programs which coincidentally have
to do with hijacked planes!

Also pick a day when our government has sent a good part of our defense fighter jets off to
Alaska and Canada . . . to fight an imaginary war with the Russians!

And when a whole other bunch of our fighter jets are sent to North Carolina on training mission!
That left 14 fighter jets to protect the entire US!

OK . . . so now you have the plane and the passengers. Now what -- ?
Do you kill them all? Do you gas them all? How do you contain them? What are the
possibilities of the hijacking not being successful?

Meanwhile, besides NORAD threat there is also the threat that the planes can be taken over
by remote control.

Every expectation -- except on 9/11 -- is that the US is the most heavily defended nation ever.
Guess we were wrong!!

However, that rumor is the major reason presumably that we could feel confident that the
"The Russians aren't coming! The Russians aren't coming!"

Had they told you that the Russians had done 9/11 you'd still be ROFL --



and then some more --

You're Muslims . . . what do you expect to benefit by this except having 1.3 or more MUSLIMS
KILLED and your country invaded as has happened? In fact, generally most of the ME invaded
by us -- and "Muslims" now being a dirty word?



Who really benefited from all of that . . . ??

The Colony Beach and Tennis Resort, where Bush stayed the night before 9/11.

On the night of September 10th, Bush stayed at the Colony Beach Resort—“an upscale and relatively pristine tropical island enclave located directly on the Gulf of Mexico, a spindly coral island… off Sarasota, Florida.” Zainlabdeen Omer, a Sudanese native living in Sarasota, told the local police that night that someone he knew who had made violent threats against Bush was in town and Omer was worried about Bush’s safety. The man was identified only as “Ghandi.” A police report states the Secret Service was informed immediately.

After a private dinner with various Florida politicians (including his brother Jeb) and Republican donors, Bush went to bed around 10:00 p.m. Surface-to-air missiles were placed on the roof of the resort , and an Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) plane circled high overhead. It’s not clear if this type of protection was standard for the president or whether security was increased because of possible threats.

But, supposedly, the Pentagon runs on "Don't worry, be happy!"






http://www.historycommons.org/essay.jsp?ar...

APOLLO 11 LUNAR MODULE

Have you ever taken a nice, close look at the Apollo11 lunar module? I will let anyone judge for him/herself whether the object pictured below is :
- a 1969 state-of-the-art NASA machine
- a third-rate, B-movie stage prop.
- a totalled Winnebago camper

Be honest with yourself - don't take the "I'm no rocket scientist" escape-route from expressing an opinion on this !

APOLLO 11 LUNAR MODULE enlarged from picture on NASA website

NOW THAT'S SOME REAL TINFOIL . . . !!!

I remember Cynthia McKinney asking questions along those lines of Rumsfeld.

Delusions of "superiority" and hatred are certainly what the right wing is about --
and it's also perfectly clear that they are violent, brutal, cruel, sexually immature males.
Somehow the theft, deception, betrayal of our country is accomplished by men like this . . .

You can suspect this kind of stuff -- but it's only suspicion. Thank heavens these young
soldiers are sacrificing their lives to courageously tell us the truth. But, how many Americans
will actually really come to understand the true dimensions of what Blackwater/Prince have done.
What those who put him there have done?

More than 1 million Iraqis dead -- America should be in tears.

18. Mr. Prince knowingly hired two persons who were previously involved in the Kosovo sex
trafficking ring to serve at relatively high-levels within his companies.

19. Mr. Prince travelled repeatedly to Iraq, and frequently visited the Blackwater "Man
Camp" during his trips overseas. Mr. Prince failed to stop the ongoing use of prostitutes,
including child prostitutes, by his men.

20. Mr. Prince's North Carolina operations had an ongoing wife-swapping and sex ring,
which was participated in by many of Mr. Prince's top executives. This sex ring ended
up causing so many disputes amongst Mr. Prince's executives that Mr. Prince directed his
employee .T oseph Sclmridt to investigate and prepare a report.


"The loveless crave power because they lack both love and self -- " Betty Friedan

what we don't have is a clear path of power to bring the truth to the public.

"Oswald was employed by the CIA working on high level assignments and

probably also by the FBI."

That was the unanimous finding of the Tunnheim Panel/1992 JFK Classified Records Act.
Obviously they got to see his Income Tax Returns/Employment records.
About the time they were impeaching Clinton, this news was being delivered in secret
to our Congress.

We had given the Taliban $124 ... and tens of millions in May before 9/11 --
We created the Taliban/Al Qaeda thru ISI Pakistan -- using them for our own purposes
to create terrorism, religious fanaticism --


We went into Afghanistan 6 months before the Russians came in .... "in order to bait
the Russians into Afghanistan . . . in hopes of giving them a Vietnam-type experience."

(I'm trusting my memory here on these $$ figures -- but the numbers were out here
last week --)

And here you go on details of Taliban/Al Qaeda/Afghanistan during Carter Administration...

The CIA's Intervention in Afghanistan
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski,
President Jimmy Carter's National Security Adviser

Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998

Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs <"From the Shadows">, that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

Q: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

Q: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

http://www.takeoverworld.info/brzezinski_i... ...


NOTE HERE HOW WE HAVE HELPED SPREAD THIS RELIGIOUS FANATACISM IN OUR OWN INTERESTS . . .
*****************************************************************************************

The US spent $100's of millions shooting down Soviet helicopters yet didn't spend a penny helping Afghanis rebuild their infrastructure and institutions.

They also spent millions producing jihad preaching, fundamentalist textbooks and shipping them off to Afghanistan. These were the same text books the Western media discussed in shocked tones and told their audiences were used by fundamentalist teachers to brainwash their charges and to inculcate in young Afghanis a jihad mindset, hatred of foreigners and non-Muslims etc.


Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal?

Or perhaps I should say, "Have you heard about the Afghan Jihad schoolbook scandal that's waiting to happen?"

Because it has been almost unreported in the Western media that the US government shipped, and continues to ship, millions of Islamist textbooks into Afghanistan.

Only one English-speaking newspaper we could find has investigated this issue: the Washington Post. The story appeared March 23rd.

Washington Post investigators report that during the past twenty years the US has spent millions of dollars producing fanatical schoolbooks, which were then distributed in Afghanistan.

"The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books..." -- Washington Post, 23 March 2002 (1)

According to the Post the U.S. is now "...wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism."

So the books made up the core curriculum in Afghan schools. And what were the unintended consequences? The Post reports that according to unnamed officials the schoolbooks "steeped a generation in violence."

How could this result have been unintended? Did they expect that giving fundamentalist schoolbooks to schoolchildren would make them moderate Muslims?

Nobody with normal intelligence could expect to distribute millions of violent Islamist schoolbooks without influencing school children towards violent Islamism. Therefore one would assume that the unnamed US officials who, we are told, are distressed at these "unintended consequences" must previously have been unaware of the Islamist content of the schoolbooks.

But surely someone was aware. The US government can't write, edit, print and ship millions of violent, Muslim fundamentalist primers into Afghanistan without high officials in the US government approving those primers.

http://www.tenc.net/articles/jared/jihad.h...

and I doubt that Bush was that shortsighted in his own interests?

OTOH, Nixon didn't go to prison -- because he was pardoned.

Maybe that tells us we have a better shot at this.

But, I'd also like Obama to be making some open statements to the military that

TORTURE is over -- and I think the message of prosecuting the higher up's would

make that clear.

We have now killed 1.3 millio Iraqi citizens in an "illegal war" which Democrats

are still funding. Where is the grace, the courage, the kharma, the intelligence

in any of this? How would we ever begin to make amends? And when do we start?

It starts when American citizens gain control over the own government!

And when they begin to use the options our founders left us with --

"the consent of the ruled" and only with that consent!

It is corporations which are controlling a "people's" government now --

We've known this for 30-40-years and all that has happened in the interim is that

corporations have become wealthier and more powerful and their tenacles on government

have become tighter.

In order to hear any thoughts on democracy we have to go back decades -- or have long

memories. The handful in Congress who speak for democratic ideals are not going to be

able to overturn things for us.

The handful in our corporate-press who speak of our outrage are not going to be able to

overturn things for us.

Indeed -- what we have left is a CIA-press . . .

and let's not forget that the beginning of the 2000 coup -- the stealing of the election -

began with John Ellis/Fox News and moved thru a GOP fascist rally to stop the vote counting

in Miami Dade County without police interference with the mob -- and finally on to the

right-wing Supremes. We've had decades of questionable elections -- think about it!


One must understand that mainstream figures like Dan Rather and Keith Olbermann are not going to voice our outrage against the current regime. They will pretend to fight George Bush, Barack Samebama, John McLame, and all of these other frontmen so that we don't look to the men behind the curtain. One way to keep us from being pesky and fighting these folks is to make us think that "heroes" like Dan Rather are already doing it for us. Evil genius, huh?

Cheer as you might -- but they are not going to deliver you from fascism -- wake up, folks!

Where to start with that jumbled mess?
One thing at a time: Let's take the moon landings by itself. It doesn't matter if the whole government is staffed by genocidal Kennedy-assassinating, CIA-directed Nazis. Utterly immaterial. Even an entrenched pattern of deception and corruption doesn't prove a particular deception, nor does it grant one magical abilities to perform amazing conspiratorial feats. The logistics of a fake moon landing are actually far more complicated than a real one.

Conspiracies are based on fooling the public . . . are you saying our government has never
done that before?

Further, you've just argued against yourself here in suggesting that a fake "Moon Landing"
is more complicated than the real thing? Really . . . ??

The problem with the Moon Landing subject is it's probably even more extraordinary a suggestion
re conspiracy in some minds than even 9/11 would be in their minds. Am I right?

AND, it takes some understanding of the claims and counter-claims which I don't think many
here are familiar with. A little different from earthly conspiracies.

Do you really think that the astronauts are going to spill the beans now?

Do you really think the astronauts are they only ones who'd have to keep a big secret here?

Of course not, but evidently you asked about the astronauts?

And, again if you really want to discuss the Moon Landing there are some here who can provide
some enlightenment on the subject -- if I can get them to take the time -- and make it a separate
thread.

Meanwhile, it's been a long time since I looked at the issue ...

What about the imagined film crews and TV studio operators?
What about the world-wide network of people assigned to maintain radio contact with the astronauts during their flight who would be pointing their antennas in the wrong direction if the astronauts weren't really out there traveling exactly the right path for a real flight?
What about the world-wide network of radar installations tracking the flight?
What about the people who were supposed to board the astronauts into the Apollo rockets? Who would have to spirit them away to a studio, then after all the TV deception was done, get them into a real spacecraft so they'd fall from the sky in the expected return capsule?
What about all of the naval vessels and military crew assigned to picking up capsules that fell from the sky with astronauts in them?
What about all the geologists who would either have to be in on the deception, or successfully fooled by some kind of conspirator-created fake moon rocks? Those rocks are still being studied today, which is a lot of fooled geologists or a long ongoing string of conspirators.
What about all the engineers who looked at the designs for all of the equipment being built who didn't complain that the stuff being build couldn't possibly work in a real mission?
What about the reflectors left on the moon by the supposedly imaginary astronauts, still functional and observable today?

Not every member of the film crew and TV stuido operators -- or Walter Cronkite for that matter -
would have known the truth. Only those necesssary to pull it off.
Indeed, it seems that some of those involved in the project did manage to leave some clues as
to what was really going on.
No one says that a rocket wasn't launched. The question is was anyone in it?
There could have been other astronauts, substitutes we're unfamiliar with.
Presumably those who "loaded the astronauts" into the spaceship might not have known that they
were removed later.
As for the return capsule, it could have just as easily been dropped into the area from a helicopter.
And, of course, the naval vessels and military crews wouldn't necessarily know that.
Oops . . . not landing in this area - landing over there!
As for the "moon rocks" and "geologists" -- some say the rocks seem questionable -- as though they
were manufactured. Meanwhile, we could have sent a rocket up -- a rocket landed on the moon the
night before we supposedly launched or landed, in fact. At any rate, a separate mission could have
been the way to collect the rocks. Meanwhile, do you know any "geologists" who have examined the
moon rocks? And, what geologist would turn around and say . . . "you know, there seems to be
something wrong with these rocks?" Not likely!
And, re the materials/equipment -- remember that these were people making money from government
contracts -- if it wasn't going to do the job, they might have guessed why.
Much of the gear and the gear in use didn't really seem functional -- and the LEM's ability to
do what was claimed is also questioned.
As for the reflections -- I have an article somewhere on that - I'll look for it.

Again, I don't think we have any idea of the numbers, but control always comes from the top
and information is compartmentalized. Once something like this begins it would be very difficult
for one person to stand up against it.
However, on the question of the astronauts, you might take a look at Jim Marrs new book -
"Rise of the Fourth Reich" -- and in fact I think there is a program on Freemasonry which
indicates that many of them were Freemasons? Religion does funny things to people's heads.
And, again "thousands" is your guess, not mine.
What did the guys sitting at the computers know about what might be really going on?
As for the Van Allen radiation belt "problem" (emphasis mine):
As I recall it, in fact, they've only recently discovered that the Van Allen Belts are even
more extensive than they formerly thought! Quite more extensive!
If you're aware of any of the evidence from helmets where astronauts were exposed for short
periods of times, you understand that they felt the effects everywhere on their bodies/brains -
and that affect was VISIBLE on their helmets. And, now "aluminum" not only crashes thru steel
but "protects from the ionizing radiation"--! No. It would take steel - thick blocks/layers
of steel to protect the craft and astronauts -- and needless to say the film!
There is no safe pathway thru the Van Allen belts unless you have an astronaut who is willing
to risk his life - and evidently quite a number of Cosmonauts did just that.

Further, our government exploded atomic weapons in the upper atmosphere evidently trying to
knock out the Van Allen belts . . . sometime in the 1960's as I recall.

Even Dr. James Van Allen, the discoverer of the Van Allen radiation belts, rebutted the claims that radiation levels were too dangerous for the Apollo missions.

Now . . . notice . . . it was a REBUTTAL of his prior claims.
After the US showed the world that they had done this, supposedly, what was Van Allen to say?

Think back to the CNN journalist outside the Pentagon with his film crew -- he tells you clearly
"NO PLANE" hit the Pentagon and emphasizes that over and again. Yet only a few short hours
later he is a broken man REBUTTING his prior statements. Obviously, they hire unreliable people
to cover these stories -- and then send them out on one of the biggest stories ever!

Dosimeters carried by the crews showed they received about the same cumulative dosage as a chest X-ray or about 1 milligray. Plait cited an average dose of less than 1 rem, which is equivalent to the ambient radiation received by living at sea level for three years. The spacecraft passed through the intense inner belt in a matter of minutes and the low-energy outer belt in about an hour and half. The astronauts were mostly shielded from the radiation by the spacecraft. The total radiation received on the trip was about the same as allowed for workers in the nuclear energy field for a year.

So the astronauts themselves measured this and told us -- while satellites came back scarred
and helmets were scarred from short trips! And let me remind you here of the soldiers forced to
remain close to our nuclear tests and what they were told about radiation levels.
And what were NYC residents told of biological tests in the NY City subways?
Do you recall the EPA LIED about the harmful environmental effects after 9/11 at Ground Zero
and surrounding areas?
I'm not suggesting that the astronauts were exposed and lied to, I'm saying it's likely they
didn't go.

The radiation is actually evidence that the astronauts went to the Moon. Irene Schneider reports that thirty-three of the thirty-six Apollo astronauts involved in the nine Apollo missions to leave Earth orbit have developed early stage cataracts that have been shown to be caused by radiation exposure to cosmic rays during their trip. However, only twenty-four astronauts left earth orbit. At least thirty-nine former astronauts have developed cataracts. Thirty-six of those were involved in high-radiation missions such as the Apollo lunar missions

Keep in mind that astronauts on the space station which seems to be only in NEAR outer space
suffer extreme problems. Some can't walk on return and have to be transported in wheel chairs.
The female astronaut Shannon Lucid holds the record for time spent on the space station.
She walked off. Females endure time in space better than males do ... that's why we had no female astronauts!
Spending any time even in NEAR space can create problems such as cataracts.

Here's something a lot of Grand Conspiracy fans just don't get: EVEN IF you think you've found flaws or unanswered questions in the "official story" of an event, unless you have an alternate explanation with FEWER unanswered questions and puzzling problems to be solved, the "official story" remains superior to your alternate version.

Isn't that simply a repeat of ... "if there were no planes, then where did the passengers go?"
Come on . . . There is an alternate explanation -- and even Hollywood thought of it!

And I'll comment on this . .

"Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice." - Unknown

What was Gallileo's stupidity and how long did it take the RCC to admit he was right?

When you said "small" I was taking it that you meant it in the sense of something minor.
However, I don't think the numbers that we may estimate really tell us anything.
Control comes from the top as we can see with the great deal of damage that Bushco did.

There are also incidental casualties -- such as the 100's who died evidently trying to
tell us the truth about the JFK assassination. Many knew, many tried to reveal what they knew.

How many people were involved in the horrendous damage done to Iraq and more than a million
innocent citizens in Iraq killed? They were taking instructions from the White House via
lawyers who twisted and tortured our laws.

I think the Moon Landings have to be a separate subject because it is an extraordinary suggestion
which supposedly doesn't take place on this planet. Somewhere along the line we should have
those who have the most information about this run a thread and discuss it. I believe there
are some here who could do that.

However, re the numbers involved in such a conspiracy and its relationship to having the
secret kept, I don't see that as the large problem you see. Many secrets have been kept by
many people for questionable reasons -- at least I think we'd question the reasons --
and presume there may still be secrets bigger than the Moon Landing.

However, what I am saying to you about the Moon Landing is that when you look at the long
history of conspiracies by this nation, it becomes obvious that that this would simply be one
more.

It's occurred to me that perhaps you think that when we talk about various conspiracies that
you suppose we mean that they are all unrelated -- ? What I think most of us are talking about
is global fascism and the continuing patterns and agenda to have total control over others --
to move the wealth and resources of every nation from the many to the few.

I'm sure you wouldn't argue with the idea that Hitler rose only with much behind the scenes assistance -- and that he rose under power of political violence? This is the same thing, essentially. The right wing cannot come to power without violence, intimidation,
assassinations and election steals.

And, of course, our elections are another obvious conspiracy -- certainly not tracking back
simply to 2000 and 2004. The computers began to come in during the mid-late-1960's and our
elections haven't made much sense since then.

Some say that the knowledge of the election steals beginning at that time may have been one
factor in the Watergate breakin . . . since information on an investigation of the computers
at that time was passed on to the Chair of the DNC. Additionally, certainly Nixon's efforts
in back channels to keep LBJ/Humphrey from succeeding with peace negotiations re VN were done
for his benefit and were treason. Not unlike Reagan's "October Surprise." Same thing.

And this comment is what makes me think that you may not understand that all of these
conspiracies are related and inter-related . . .

I'm not getting into Iran/Contra et al because I'm not going to get into an utterly-beside-the-point case-by-case on every possible conspiracy that can be brought up.

This is somewhat unclear --
However, neither can you suggest that since you only find Watergate a believable conspiracy (a gratuitous misrepresentation of what I've said -- as if I'm under some obligation to enumerate every single conspiracy I think has happened, and somehow implicitly disbelieve everything I don't explicitly confirm belief in) that there weren't many other conspiracies -- and that the Moon Landing wasn't one of them!

if you're interested in arguing it, you'll have to restate it --


And this does give me more of a clue that perhaps you see these events as being isolated from
one another...

That Watergate happened is mutually independent of any other conspiracy that may or may not have happened. It's a perversion of the burden of proof to imply that all possible other conspiracies must be disproved.

No -- Nixon was planning a false flag operation -- akin to Operation Northwoods --
in order to halt the elections of 1972. See The Huston Plan. And it included murder.
Nixon is involved in many ways in the JFK assassination. As LBJ was.
If you haven't seen the video of Madelaine Brown, JFK's mistress, as she describes who
attended the dinner and private meeting the night before the assassination at Clinton
Murchinson's home, I'd suggest you view it. She also recites the long list of names of
those involved.

Meanwhile, in verification of that meeting and all the attendees, journalist Helen Thomas just
happened to have been invited that evening to the social event. The day after JFK's assassination
Helen Thomas filed an affadavit naming all of the participants in that meeting --
Nixon, LBJ, J. Edgar Hoover and many, many more notables were there - including John McCloy,
if you know anything about him.

Unfortunately, global fascism wasn't defeated in WWII -- hundreds of thousands of Nazis were
brought into our country under Operation Paperclip under the guidance of Allen Dulles.
They were used to found the CIA, they were funneled into the FBI - and NASA.

Human nature is enough to tell us that there have been, there are, and there will be many conspiracies. Some will eventually be uncovered, some will successfully be concealed. What that doesn't tell is which ones are real or not. Each must be proved or disproved by evidence and on individual merit.

Most of the details of all the conspiracies are known -- they do eventually get written about
but not necessarily in school textbooks. Unfortunately, the power of the right wing to keep
coverups going has not dissipatated.

If you wish to keep discussing this civilly, I'd be happy to --

If you want to move on -- I understand.

New Haven had previously been sued by firefighters for discrimination . . .
that's why they understood the peril they were in regarding the "disparate-impact"
re the test that had just been given --

ADDITIONALLY . . . Kennedy notes this . . .

"because of controversy surrounding previous examinations"

*************************************************************

As witnesses make clear, the test could not have withstood challenge --

Additionally, study materials had cost $500 and out of stock with month and a half delay.
That have the ring of a poll tax?

Significantly, the white firefighters generally had a relative who was with the department
or had previously served and the materials were available to them.

See my further comments below under "For the record" --

There's a link to both majority and minority opinions if you're interested --


Critical understanding = rebellion = organization = change


And, actually the figures I first used were wrongly stated in some of the reports --

I think 77 whites - 19 AA -- also a larger number of Hispanics took the Lieutenant exam.

You'll find a better report on the actual numbers in the opinions -
there's a link there

And, if you want a "dispute" read Gingsburg's opening on the long shadow cast by discrimination
in municipalities -- firefighters --

and about the lawsuit against New Haven for historical discrimination against minority firefighters --

EXCERPT ...
What are we to make of that --

And why would Kelly have trusted anyone like Judith Miller?

Dr Kelly was also intending to lift the lid on a potentially bigger scandal, his own secret dealings in germ warfare with the apartheid regime in South Africa.

US television investigators have spent four years preparing a 90-minute documentary, Anthrax War, suggesting there is a global black market in anthrax and exposing the mystery “suicides” of five government germ warfare scientists from around the world.

He wanted his story to come out



Director Bob Coen said: ‘‘The deeper you look into the murky world of governments and germ warfare, the more worrying it becomes.

“We have proved there is a black ­market in anthrax. David Kelly was of particular interest to us because he was a world expert on anthrax and he was involved in some degree with assisting the secret germ warfare programme in apartheid South Africa.”

http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/06/uk-...

Get to your library if you truly have curiosity and care . . .

High Teason I and II by Livingstone --
Crossfire by Jim Marrs

should put you on the right road.

The evidence is there and here's why the Magic Bullet is farce . . .

Wound in JFK's neck was a wound of entry -- and had "NO OUTLET" as confirmed at autopsy.

Wound in JFK's back was close to his right shoulder blade -- and had "NO OUTLET"

as confirmed at autopsy.

Further, shoulder wound was made at a 45 DEGREE DOWNWARD ANGLE.

***************************************************************

As for head wound, see film of McDuff making clear location of the wound was in temple area.

The corporate-press, of course knew all of this information.

OTOH, "You can't wake up a sleeping man who is pretending to be asleep"

after an investigation --

But, the women's organization -- notably Ellie Smeal of Fund for the Feminist Majority
long ago connected this violence to women's clinics/doctors, etc. to right-wing
militia supremacists' groups. All of that information, long ago, was passed on to
officials/Federal government. There was, of course, disappointment that none of the
information was not acted upon even at that time.

And, you might have noticed that Roeder was a "Freeman"
which is a militia group. I haven't gone to the internet to see who they are and what
they do, but the ex-wife of Roeder has said that after joining this group he became
obsessed with abortion.

Nor am I suggesting that all of these groups don't have interconnections.

Tonight, Rachel Maddow had a very important interview with a guy who worked at one of
the clinics. I didn't hear every bit of it -- and others should recheck and hopefully
we'll have some video on this -- but this man said that Roeder had been identified
previously as "gluing their doors." This is a very serious situation which takes a long
time to undo. They had him on film, they had his license plate number -- and some were
witnesses to his activities and could identify him. This was all reported at the time
to officials, including FBI in Kansas. At that time they didn't prosecute him!

HOWEVER, the guy who works at the clinic said on Saturday -- the Saturday before the
shooting of Dr. Tiller -- Roeder was at their clinic again "gluing the doors."
They got a look at him in person. Again, they had him on film and his license plate number.
It was reported within five minutes to the FBI.

Obviously, Roeder was NOT apprehended -- had he been, there is every reason to believe that
Dr. Tiller would still be alive.

Keep in mind that Dr. Tiller was facing excalating threats and attacks on the clinic.
Dr. Tiller had asked requested added protection citing the rising incidents just before
he was murdered!



In other words, we seem to still have reluctant police enforcement on our hands, even
in light of the FACE laws passed quite some time back!