grantcart's Journal - Pineapples and apples why President Obama's "prolonged detention" is wholly different than Bush's

Text of speech here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/21/us/polit...

President Obama's "prolonged detention" is to Bush's "detention of noncombatants" in the same way that "apples" are comparable to "pineapples". Here's why:

I. Origination

Bush's intention was to vacuum the battlefield and scoop up as many fish as he could into the detention 'net'.

Obama's intention is to first not bring any new detainees to Gitmo, and secondly put all detainees through normal legal channels, if possible.

II. End Game

Bush's prolonged detention was his beginning and middle game, literally his best case scenario, there was no end game. Bush successfully prosecuted only 3 detainees, who largely plead guilty to get out of Gitmo.

Obama's prolonged detention is only a theoretical worst case scenario, and if it exists, is the result of legal contamination of the Bush administration:

We're going to exhaust every avenue that we have to prosecute those at Guantanamo who pose a danger to our country. But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, in some cases because evidence may be tainted, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States.

III. Imperial Presidency

Bush concealed his actions, memos, rational and tried to take his actions beyond the reach of the American people or any other branch of the Government.

Obama is going to limit the power of the President to make such decisions and establish an appropriate level of oversight and check of Executive power.

I know that creating such a system poses unique challenges. And other countries have grappled with this question; now, so must we. But I want to be very clear that our goal is to construct a legitimate legal framework for the remaining Guantanamo detainees that cannot be transferred. Our goal is not to avoid a legitimate legal framework. In our constitutional system, prolonged detention should not be the decision of any one man. If and when we determine that the United States must hold individuals to keep them from carrying out an act of war, we will do so within a system that involves judicial and congressional oversight. And so, going forward, my administration will work with Congress to develop an appropriate legal regime so that our efforts are consistent with our values and our Constitution.

IV.Honesty in Communicating with the American People

Bush/Cheney used every cheap jingoistic trick to try and deceive the people and incite fear. From the Plame affair to allusions to a 'mushroom' cloud, their was not intellectual honesty.

Obama is using direct straight talk without evasion or deception;

Now, finally, there remains the question of detainees at Guantanamo who cannot be prosecuted yet who pose a clear danger to the American people. And I have to be honest here -- this is the toughest single issue that we will face. . .

. . .But even when this process is complete, there may be a number of people who cannot be prosecuted for past crimes, in some cases because evidence may be tainted, but who nonetheless pose a threat to the security of the United States. Examples of that threat include people who've received extensive explosives training at al Qaeda training camps, or commanded Taliban troops in battle, or expressed their allegiance to Osama bin Laden, or otherwise made it clear that they want to kill Americans. These are people who, in effect, remain at war with the United States. .

. .Let me repeat: I am not going to release individuals who endanger the American people. Al Qaeda terrorists and their affiliates are at war with the United States, and those that we capture -- like other prisoners of war -- must be prevented from attacking us again.

V. Inciting Fear for Partisan Purposes

Bush's political operatives used the capture of high value targets to increase the level of fear.

Obama is trying to take the use of fear as a political wedge issue out of the public square, and he has been left to do this by himself.

. . Now, as our efforts to close Guantanamo move forward, I know that the politics in Congress will be difficult. These are issues that are fodder for 30-second commercials. You can almost picture the direct mail pieces that emerge from any vote on this issue -- designed to frighten the population. I get it. But if we continue to make decisions within a climate of fear, we will make more mistakes. And if we refuse to deal with these issues today, then I guarantee you that they will be an albatross around our efforts to combat terrorism in the future.

Concern for Human Rights

Bush had no concern for how these policies would be seen by experts on Human Rights and the constituencies that support Human Rights.

Obama sought them out before he finalizes his policy and discusses it directly with them, seeking their input.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/20/o...

In an interview with the Huffington Post, Massimino (CEO of Human Rights First) detailed what she described as a "lively and detailed and serious" discussion on some of the days most vexing national security issues. Over the course of roughly an hour and fifteen minutes, Obama, along with Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, Attorney General Eric Holder, advisers Valerie Jarrett and David Axelrod, foreign policy hand Dennis McDonough, and counter-terrorism chief John Brennan, held court with a group of academics, as well as officials with the ACLU, Human Rights Watch, and the Center for Constitutional Rights.

Asked to attend the meeting on Tuesday afternoon, the group came prepared with what Massimino described as "some pointed pushback and questions" on a variety of topics. The president, she added, spoke for roughly fifteen minutes before opening up the forum for questions.

"It was really a back and forth discussion," said Massimino. "It was not, one side makes a presentation and the other side listens and takes notes. It was really probing."

There was much to probe. According to Massimino, Obama had "two baskets of issues he wanted to talk about: one was Guantanamo and all of the things pertaining to closing it. And the other was transparency.

Conclusion

President Obama now stands virtually alone as the only politician that wants to unconditionally bring Gitmo detainees to US soil. While Republican Senators launch a ridiculous fear campaign and Democratic Senators largely run and hide, President Obama proceeds with trademark persist ency.

He clearly intends to use existing civilian court system for some detainees, significantly transform military tribunals so that standards of due process can be used for others, release detainees that are innocent and repatriate others who are no longer a threat.

For any others that continue to engage in a state of war against the US, and who may not fit the existing system the President intends to find an answer that is consistent with our values. The US has always detained Prisoners of War who continue to demonstrate a real threat to the country. Our constitution is not an invitation to suicide. He will subject that system to oversight of congress and the judiciary.

The biggest difference between the two approaches is that Bush had everyone in the same basket while President Obama is doing everything to put no one in that same basket.

Given the extraordinary steps he has taken to close Gitmo and bring all of the detainees into regular judicial process that can be, I think it would be prudent to withhold criticism of his approach until the system he intends to use is actually defined.

Edited to add

These are the camps that were used during WWII to hold hostile combatants still in a state of war against the United States

In the United States, at the end of World War II there were 175 Branch Camps serving 511 Area Camps containing over 425,000 prisoners of war. The camps were located all over the US but were mostly in the South because of the expense of heating the barracks. Eventually, every state with the exception of Nevada, North Dakota, and Vermont had POW camps.
This list is incomplete; you can help by expanding it.
Camp Location
Camp Allegan Michigan
Bradley Field Connecticut
Camp Adair Oregon
Camp Albuquerque New Mexico
Camp Algoma Idaho
Camp Algona Iowa
Camp Aliceville Alabama
Camp Allen Norfolk, Virginia
Camp Alva Oklahoma
Camp Andrews Boston Harbor
Camp Angel Island California
Camp Ashby Virginia
Camp Ashford West Virginia
Camp Atlanta Nebraska
Camp Atterbury (3,500 Italians. Later 10,000 Germans)(www.IndianaMilitary.org ) Indiana
Camp AuTrain Michigan, AuTrain
Camp Barkeley Texas
Camp Bastrop

* Kurt Richard Westphal escaped in August 1945, and was recaptured in Hamburg, Germany in 1954.

Texas
Camp Beale California
Camp Blanding Florida
Camp Bowie Texas<1>
Camp Brady Texas
Camp Breckinridge Kentucky
Camp Briner North Carolina
Camp Bullis San Antonio, Texas
Camp Butner

* Kurt Rossmeisl escaped on 4 August 1945, and surrendered in 1959.

North Carolina
Camp Campbell Kentucky
Camp Carson Colorado
Camp Chaffee Sebastian County, Arkansas
Camp Chickasha Grady County, Oklahoma
Camp Claiborne Louisiana
Camp Clarinda Iowa
Camp Clark Missouri
Camp Clinton Mississippi
Camp Como Mississippi
Camp Concordia Kansas
Camp Cooke California
Camp Croft South Carolina
Camp Crossville Tennessee
Camp Crowder Missouri
Camp David Maryland
Camp Deming

* Georg G�rtner escaped on 21 September 1945, and finally surrendered in 1985. He was the last, and had remained at large for 40 years.

New Mexico
Camp Dermott Arkansas
Camp Douglas Wyoming
Camp Edwards Massachusetts
Camp Ellis Illinois
Camp Evelyn Alger County, Michigan
Camp Fannin

* Located on the campus of the now University of Texas Health Center at Tyler.

Tyler, Texas
Camp Florence

* Largest all-new prisoner of war compound ever constructed on American soil <1>it is now used as United States Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)

Florence, Arizona
Camp Forrest

* First attempted escape by two German POWs on 5 November 1942.

Tullahoma, Tennessee
Camp Gene Autry Ardmore Army Air Field, Oklahoma
Camp Germfask Germfask, Michigan
Camp Grant Rockford, IL
Camp Greeley <2> Greeley, Colorado
Camp Gruber near Muskogee, Oklahoma
Camp Hearne Hearne, Texas
Camp Hereford Deaf Smith County, Texas (only for Italians)<2>
Camp Hobart Oklahoma
Camp Hoffman (close to Fort Lincoln and Held over 5,000 confederate soldiers) Maryland
Camp Hood Texas
Camp Horseshoe Ranch Hickory, Oklahoma
Camp Houlton Maine
Camp Howze Texas<3>
Camp Hulen Palacios,Texas
Camp Huntsdale Pennsylvania
Camp Huntsville Texas
Camp Indianola Nebraska
Camp Jerome Arkansas
Camp Las Cruces

* Werner Paul Lueck escaped in November 1945, and was recaptured in Mexico City in 1954.

Las Cruces, New Mexico
Camp Lee Virginia
Camp Livingston Louisiana
Camp Lockett California
Camp Lordsburg

* 1942-1945: held Japanese American internees, and then German/Italian POWs.

Lordsburg, New Mexico
Camp Mackall Hoffman, North Carolina
Camp McAlester Oklahoma
Camp McCain Mississippi
Camp McCoy Wisconsin
Camp McLean Texas
Camp Mackan North Carolina
Camp Maxey Texas<4>
Camp Mexia Texas
Camp Myles Standish Massachusetts
Camp Monticello Arkansas
Camp New Cumbrland Pennsylvania
Camp Ogden Utah
Camp Oklahoma City On site of Will Rogers World Airport.
Camp Opelika Alabama
Camp Owosso Michigan, Shiawassee County
Camp Papago Park

* Germany's 'Great Escape' was from a 200 foot tunnel by 25 prisoners on 24 December 1944.

Arizona
Camp Pauls Valley Oklahoma
Camp Peary Virginia
Camp Perry Ohio
Camp Philips Kansas
Camp Pickett Virginia
Camp Pima Arizona
Camp Pine Grove Furnace / Camp Michaux Gettysburg, PA
Camp Polk Louisiana
Camp Pomona California
Camp Popolopen New York
Camp Pori Michigan, Upper Peninsula
Camp Pryor Oklahoma
Camp Raco Michigan, near Sault Ste. Marie
Camp Reynolds Pennsyslvania
Camp Jos. T. Robinson Arkansas
Camp Roswell

* 1942-1946: German POWs.

Roswell, New Mexico (14 miles SE of town)
Camp Rucker Alabama
Camp Rupert Idaho
Camp Ruston Louisiana
Camp Santa Fe New Mexico
Camp Scottsbluff Nebraska
Camp Shanks New York: Point of embarkation
Camp Sharpe Gettysburg, PA
Camp Shelby Mississippi
Camp Sibert Alabama
Camp Sidnaw Sidnaw, Michigan
Camp Somerset Maryland
Camp Stark New Hampshire
Camp Stewart Georgia
Camp Stockton California
Stringtown POW Camp Atoka, Oklahoma
Camp Sutton North Carolina
Camp Swift Bastrop, Texas
Camp Thornton Illinois
Camp Tipton Oklahoma
Camp Tishomingo Oklahoma
Camp Tonkawa

* Site of murder of Johannes Kunze by five fellow German POWs, who were subsequently tried, found guilty and hanged.

Oklahoma
Camp Tooele / POW Camp, Co.1, Tooele (original postage) Utah
Camp Trinidad

* A 150-foot electrically-lighted tunnel was discovered by authorities.

Colorado
Camp Van Dorn Mississippi
Camp Wallace Galveston County,Texas
Camp Warner Utah
Camp Washington

* Reinhold Pabel escaped on 9 September 1945, and was recaptured in Chicago in March 1953

Washington (near Peoria), Illinois
Camp Waynoka Oklahoma
Camp Wharton Wharton, Texas
Camp Wheeler Georgia
Camp White Oregon
Camp White Rock Dallas, Texas
Camp Wolters Texas
Corpus Christi Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas
Edgewood Arsenal Maryland
Eglin Army Air Field Florida
Fort Benjamin Harrison Indiana
Fort Benning Georgia
Fort Bliss Texas
Fort Bragg North Carolina
Fort Campbell Kentucky
Fort Crockett Galveston, Texas
Fort Curtis Virginia
Fort Custer Michigan
Fort Devens Massachusetts
Fort Dix

* Harry Girth escaped in June 1946, and surrendered to authorities in New York City in 1953.

New Jersey
Fort Drum New York
Fort DuPont Delaware
Fort Eustis Virginia
Fort Gordon Georgia
Fort Jackson South Carolina
Fort Kearny Rhode Island
Fort Knox Kentucky
Fort Lawton (Seattle) Washington

* A riot by Negro soldiers took place over preferential treatment given to Italian & German

POW's. One Italian POW was lynched, and Leon Jaworski was the military prosecutor. The Italian and one German POW who committed suicide rather than be repatriated are buried just outside the post cemetery boundaries.
Fort Leavenworth Kansas
Fort Leonard Wood Missouri
Fort Lewis Between Olympia and Tacoma, WA
Fort McClellan Alabama
Fort Meade Maryland
Fort Niagara New York
Fort Oglethorpe Georgia
Fort Omaha Omaha, Nebraska
Fort Ord

* A 120-foot nearly completed tunnel was discovered by authorities.

California
Fort Patrick Henry Virginia
Fort Reno Oklahoma
Fort Riley Kansas
Fort Robinson Nebraska
Fort D. A. Russell Texas
Fort Sam Houston Texas
Fort Sheridan Illinois
Fort Sill Lawton, Oklahoma
Fort Sumner New Mexico
Fort F.E. Warren Wyoming
Glennan General Hospital Oklahoma
Halloran General Hospital New York
Hampton Roads Port of Embarkation Virginia
Indiantown Gap Military Reservation Pennsyslvania
Holabird Signal Depot Maryland
McCloskey General Hospital Texas
Memphis General Depot Tennessee
New Orleans Port of Embarkation Louisiana
Olmstead Field Pennsyslvania
Pine Bluff Arsenal Arkansas
Richmond ASF Depot Virginia
Tobyhanna Military Reservation Pennsyslvania
Westover Field Massachusetts
Rose Hill Rocky mountain arsenal, Colorado