I really do. Much of what I write here is mainly based on how I feel about the topic.

I understand that losing a loved one, especially your family is a profound experience. I lost my sister in simialar fashion 9 years and empathize here.

OTOH.

Did this guy ever think about this experience when he voted to send the daughters, mothers, sisters, brothers, fathers, aunts and uncles of everyone else to go die in the desert? For a guy who's supposed to be a foreign relations expert and has access to all sorts of information and other experts in this field (paging Ritter, Wilson, Plame and Behr) I think more than just an apology is warranted here. There's absolutely no excuse here.

My neighbor has a son on his third tour of duty in Iraq and she just lost a husband to lung cancer two years ago. What does Biden, who should know what his vote cost others, have to say to her should he come back in flag draped coffin.

I feel bad for Biden and his loss so don't get me wrong on that. Thinking of my loss and knowing what that feels like I think I would have been EXTREMELY FUCKING CAREFULL sending someone elses child or parent off to die.

I would offer the same to any candidate who's suffered the same. But Biden just really pissed me off with his little sob story.

I think are off their rocker.

I think Biden should take the same advice he offered the gun owner and get checked out.

I was watching a clip from one of the debates just recently. Biden was Fielding a question regarding guns from a gun nut. In his response he mentioned that crazy people should not own guns and thought the guy asking the question needed a psych eval.

Well, now I find myself questioning Biden's sanity as well. On the gun issue itself I'm a little ambivalent. It's one of those issues where I guess I'm a little selfish because I don't own one and don't really care if they are banned entirely. Besides, I think fear is really the issue there and sets up a catch 22; People buy guns a kill others unnecassarily because of fear while the idea of other people owning guns also causes a great deal of fear.

Anyways.

Back to Biden.

I understand that Bush is crazy and knew that long before he was "elected" into office. When Shrubby stated that Jesus was a philosopher I knew he had bats in the belfry. I also understand that crazy people can be very convincing regarding their psychotic beliefs and that what they think is real is very real to them.

Knowing that crazy people shouldn't own guns couldn't this same thing be applied to war powers? I think it takes an even crazier person to authorize a complete nutjob to go to war.

I think Joe Biden should take his own advice and get evaluated also.

I took a six month haitus from the place because I got tired of watching everyone rat eachother out. I always felt that as Democrats we should all be on the same team and work a little harder to get along with one another.

I don't hate anybody here. As a matter of fact, I have longstanding rivals and others I keep in contact with via PM. For the most part it's all been respectable even with the folks I've had some hard fought debates with in the past. The point I've always felt was to keep it fun.

And so we did.

Then after awhile it seemed that those not involved in the debate or discussion got the guster to play hall monitor. The first few times I let it fly and then it just got to annoying to bear. So I decided to to take a break. I didn't post here for six months. My hope was that with time some folks would get tired of ratting eachother out and the "neener neener" antics that followed.

Really, if I wanted to deal with that I'd spend my free time with the middle managers at my job. They always get their jollys diming each other out and those around them.

I don't blame the mods for it. I think they have a tough job and it can't be a lot of fun playing babysitter on this board all day. You couldn't pay me enough to deal with the bullshit those guys have to put with on a daily basis around here.

The point is that hanging around here too long makes me start to hate Democrats. Not for the issues but for the way they treat some treat eachother around these parts with the ratting. I don't want to hate anyone or this party.

So with that said.

I'm off.


Good luck to all of you.

I was perusing some of their candidates in other states. After Nov 7 I say we make a push for the Democrats to push legislation that;

1) Increases the minimum wage to 16-18 dollars an hour. I know most economies are local but it's time we put a stop to that. It's immoral when corporation forces labor to compete against non existent standards in other countries, the same can be said of states where the wages are lower.

In places like MA, rents are at a minimum $1000 a month (That's just for a studio). Lets not even get into mortgages. Increasing the minimum wage helps local businesses by increasing consumer spending. We could enact temp price freezes on certain items to keep corporations from taking advantage. This helps consumers who want to invest that money into their communities and spend it local businesses who have a hard time competing with the Wal Marts.

2) BRING BACK SOLAR PANELS. The movement to solar energy began in the eighties and needs to be revitalized. Offer loans so people can install them. With the savings in energy costs, consumers can pay them back in 3-7 years.

3) Investing in solar panels creates jobs!!!!! People are needed to intall them and devolpers are needed to improive technology.

4) Individual wind power for every home. See solar panels above!!!!!

Write letters to your congressmen, governors and state legislature to push this through. Getting Republicans out and Dems in is half the battle. Keeping them in office is another story!!!!

Also, ideas such as these keeps our oponents on the defensive. They like to pretend they stand for working folks? I'd like to see them fight these off and convince Americans why they don't deserve a living wage and why they don't deserve energy independence.

Think Global warming!!!! Republicans have been working overtime to convince Americans that it doesn't exist. They lost!!!!! They have also tryed convincing people that the minimum wage is not needed. They will lose that battle as well.

Once we put them down. Let's keep them down.

I think it's time to switch currency. We need to ditch the dollar and adopt E-coli spinach as our new currency. Start collecting now because in a few years it will increase in value. Just act the Franklin Mint as they've already created molds for their first round of commemorative E-Coli spinach coins. Ronald Reagan's bust is already set for the new dime.

When they start talking trickle down economics, trust me, this time it will work.

Unless the wealthy 1% have no reservations when it comes to hoarding shitty spinach.

Lamont beats Lieberman and looks what happened!!! These jokers didnt have passports or plane tickets!!!! Chalk another one up for the "far leftists" who've "taken over the Democratic party"!!!!!




Source: U.S., U.K. at odds over timing of arrests
British wanted to continue surveillance on terror suspects, official says


By Aram Roston, Lisa Myers, and the NBC News Investigative Unit
NBC News
Updated: 8:13 p.m. ET Aug 12, 2006
LONDON - NBC News has learned that U.S. and British authorities had a significant disagreement over when to move in on the suspects in the alleged plot to bring down trans-Atlantic airliners bound for the United States.

A senior British official knowledgeable about the case said British police were planning to continue to run surveillance for at least another week to try to obtain more evidence, while American officials pressured them to arrest the suspects sooner. The official spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the case.

In contrast to previous reports, the official suggested an attack was not imminent, saying the suspects had not yet purchased any airline tickets. In fact, some did not even have passports.

The source did say, however, that police believe one U.K.-based suspect was ready to conduct a "dry run." British authorities had wanted to let him go forward with part of the plan, but the Americans balked.

At the White House, a top aide to President Bush denied the account.

"There was unprecedented cooperation and coordination between the U.S., the U.K. and Pakistani officials throughout the case," said Frances Townsend, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism, "and we worked together to protect our citizens from harm while ensuring that we gathered as much info as possible to bring the plotters to justice. There was no disagreement between U.S. and U.K. officials."

Another U.S. official, however, acknowledges there was disagreement over timing. Analysts say that in recent years, American security officials have become edgier than the British in such cases because of missed opportunities leading up to 9/11.

More at link:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14320452 /
-------------------------------------------
EDIT: COPYRIGHT. PLEASE POST ONLY 4 OR 5
PARAGRAPHS FROM THE COPYRIGHTED NEWS
SOURCE PER DU RULES.

This is a great resource for those looking to find out who's shaping this debate. Turns out it's the "same shit different day". I think everybody should have a gander at this link;

http://www.publiceye.org/magazine/v09n2/im...

Here's a snippet;



<<<<<Nothing is as fiercely contested or as wildly divergent in their conclusions as studies on the impact of immigration on the economy. Anti-immigrant organizations point to a study by Dr. Donald Huddle that shows that immigrants cost the US $44 billion more than they contributed in 1993. Immigrant advocates point to the Urban Institute study that shows that immigrants contributed from $25 to $35 billion more than they took out in 1992. A study by Los Angeles County found that immigrants cost the county almost $1 billion, but give back four times that amount in taxes. The problem, however, for Los Angeles County is that the taxes go to the federal government instead of the county. Business Week estimated that immigrants pay $70.3 billion in taxes annually and receive $5 billion in welfare benefits, and another $11.5 billion in primary and secondary education benefits.

The Urban Institute reviewed a number of contemporary studies that "document" the draining effect of immigrants on the US economy in order to find underlying biases. They found that the studies vary in quality, but "the results invariably overstate the negative impact of immigrants for the following reasons: 1) they systematically understate tax collections from immigrants, 2) they systematically overstate service costs for immigrants, 3) none credit immigrants for the impact of immigrant-owned businesses or the full economic benefit generated by consumer spending from immigrants, 4) job displacement impact and costs are overstated, 5) they omit the fact that parallel computations for natives show natives use more in services than they pay in taxes too, and 6) the size of the immigrant population--particularly the undocumented immigrant population--tends to be overstated.">>>





Be wary and fully research claims made on this supposed "common sense" issue. There are many movers and shakers and it's just as important to point out the fallacies and where they are coming from. The right wing has done a fantastic job of duping Americans on this issue.

This used to be the old AriannaOnline forum. It's been resurrected as DebateBothSides.

http://www.debatebothsides.com/index.php

Before she took the her old site in favor of the HuffingtonPost, she was kind enough to allow the mods ownership. It's a good forum with a few good thoughtful posters. For the most part its been taken over by a bunch of anti semites and racists. I got a little tired of it so I'm takin some time away from it.

Otherwise it's an anything goes kinda place. It even has a few Republican public officials posting there so I'm sure you'll have fun unloading on them. I think someone here earlier mentioned they wated to take on some conservatives.

It's one of the few places on the net where you can give them a go w/o mod interference.

Enjoy!!!!

I keep looking at all that's gone on over the last six years and the state of things today. I am looking at CAFTA, NAFTA, WTO, Welfare Reform, Overtime restructuring, Bankruptsty reform, Campaign finance reform, Alito, Iraq War, Immigration Debate, Gay marriage Debate, Religion, Media and anything else you name.

I can go on for hours.

The more I look at this thing, the more I see that the uphill battle is ahead of us. We haven't even breached the borders of Mordor yet. Will we be able to sustain any ammounts of pressure on these issues when Bush is gone? For as much as he's an asshole he's one hell of a polarizing figure.

I worryed about what happens when the next comes along and claims he's a reformer. And let's us all down............AGAIN!!!!!

What really wories me the most is that people become content when Bush is long gone and out of power. The real work begins afterwards. These last two years were supposed to be the great last stand of the Democrats. They were all supposed to stand up collectivly and give the finger to Bush. It didn't pan out that way and it seems there were only a handfull of Dems that stood up.

Then there is mainstreaming of hate that has undone all the progress we've made. There's paranoia of gays, immigrants and the McCarthy stain of the Red Scare still alive and well.

I was reading somewhere today that stated the last poor peoples movement in this country was led by Martin Luther King. Has there ever been a period in America where we've had to go back that far to find a poor peoples movement?

I am given hope in the fact that people long thought dead and beaten always seem to come back and bite our leaders in the ass; The Espionage Act was used to discourage anti war activites, Native Americans were thought dead and gone until they popped up in the 70's yadd yadda yadda yadda. The list goes one.

I am not giving up hope. Although I am very skeptical of what happens should the Dems take back the House and senate in 06. Then perhaps the presidency in 08. I am worried about people falling asleep because those in charge have a D on their chest.

Lets have a look at this claim shall we?

The majority of immigrants that come here illegally are employed in which sector of the economy? Agriculture?

Let us take a look at the laws on the books!!!!


Executive, administrative, and professional employees (including teachers and academic administrative personnel in elementary and secondary schools), outside sales employees, and certain skilled computer professionals (as defined in the Department of Labor's regulations); 1

Employees of certain seasonal amusement or recreational establishments;

Employees of certain small newspapers and switchboard operators of small telephone companies;

Seamen employed on foreign vessels;

Employees engaged in fishing operations;

Employees engaged in newspaper delivery;

Farm workers employed on small farms (i.e., those that used less than 500 "man‑days" of farm labor in any calendar quarter of the preceding calendar year); and

Casual babysitters and persons employed as companions to the elderly or infirm.
The following are examples of employees exempt from the overtime pay requirements only:

Certain commissioned employees of retail or service establishments;

Auto, truck, trailer, farm implement, boat, or aircraft salespersons employed by non‑manufacturing establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to ultimate purchasers;

Auto, truck, or farm implement parts‑clerks and mechanics employed by non‑manufacturing establishments primarily engaged in selling these items to ultimate purchasers;

Railroad and air carrier employees, taxi drivers, certain employees of motor carriers, seamen on American vessels, and local delivery employees paid on approved trip rate plans;

Announcers, news editors, and chief engineers of certain non‑metropolitan broadcasting stations;

Domestic service workers who reside in their employers' residences;

Employees of motion picture theaters; and

Farmworkers.
Certain employees may be partially exempt from the overtime pay requirements. These include:

Employees engaged in certain operations on agricultural commodities and employees of certain bulk petroleum distributors;

Employees of hospitals and residential care establishments that have agreements with the employees that they will work 14‑day periods in lieu of 7‑day workweeks (if the employees are paid overtime premium pay within the requirements of the Act for all hours worked over eight in a day or 80 in the 14‑day work period, whichever is the greater number of overtime hours); and

Employees who lack a high school diploma, or who have not completed the eighth grade, who spend part of their workweeks in remedial reading or training in other basic skills that are not job‑specific. Employers may require such employees to engage in these activities up to 10 hours in a workweek. Employers must pay normal wages for the hours spent in such training but need not pay overtime premium pay for training hours.]





So farm laborers are exempt from minimum wage laws!!!!!!! So someone please explain to me how one can drive down wages for farm laborers when they are not required to pay the minimum wage.

(For clarification; This is not directed at everybody)

Much ado is being made on threads about illegal immigration regarding the "race card" and "race baiting". I find that the only people who cry the "race card" and "race baiting" are those that happen know their own bigotry. I have never been wrong on this issue.

Here's why we think you're bigots; EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM IN AMERICA HAS BEEN LAIN ON THE FEET OF IMMIGRANTS!!!!! There's a simple word for it, it's called "SCAPEGOATING"!!!! Those that are moderately adequate in their analyical skills have been able to pick out their flawed cause and effect arguments.

Here's how it works;

Lack of jobs = Illegal Immigrants are stealing them

Declining wages = Illegal Immigrants will work for less

Shrinking middle class = Illegal Immigrants are taking middle class jobs

Poor schools = Illegal Immigrants are flooding the school districts

No money for teachers = Illegal Immigrants are coming here, working and not paying taxes.

Decline of Union Power = Yup, you guessed it !!!! The influx of illegals!!!!!

These are just a few examples of it that I have gleaned from the board. Every single one of them I have knocked down with FACTS!!!!!! Every single one of these issues have roots in other causes and the least of them being the influx of 12 million undocumented workers. There are roughly three hundred million people living in this country. Common sense and logic would dictate that it's impossible for for 12 million to reek so much havock on the system.

This form of bigotry where one group of people are to blame for all the nations problems is nothing new to this country. Neither are the defenses of the bigots. To keep it short; We've all read about this in history or have seen it before.

Here lies the kicker. Not everyone who is making these arguments is a bigot. Many of them have been sold a lemon and haven't realized it yet. It's pretty easy to tell the shaphard from the flock on this issue.

The causes for many of these problems that I have listed have already been stated a million times over on this board. Many of us have analyzed the crap out of them and know the score. Here's a breif list of the causes

1) Right to work laws

2) Taft Hartly

3) NAFTA

4) CAFTA

5) Increased Military spending

6) Welfare Reform

7) Tax Cuts

8) Rising Housing Costs

9) Rising gas prices

10) WTO

11) Media

12) Corporate ownership of the political system

13) Iraq war

All of these are the causes of job loss, wage reduction, lousy schools and a shrinking middle class (Who I like to refer to as the buffer between the rich and the poor). America has always been a nation of immigration. The simple fact is that when union membership is high wages are raised. I would say that the Union Leadership who are advocating full citizen rights to the twelve million illegal in this country have their finger on the button (No that is not in agreement with Bush's temp status which leads to more exploitation). A lot more than those harping to kick them out so they can be subjected to continued exploitation by American corporations across the border.

My advice is that those that are really concerned about labor in this country that they really pay attention to what's happening here. There is a lot of bigotry flyin all over this board by some regarding this issue. Our greatest test is to keep our fingers on the button regarding many of these issues and to not allow these people to distract us.

It appears a few of them have their own agenda in mind.

Here it is in all it's glory. I am posting this here because I am sick of the fakes who claim to speak for labor telling labor what it should do. Hopefully those that have fallen for "they steal our jobs" might learn a thing or to. Perhaps they themselvs will take a reading to history and learn a thing or to.

What Union Members Should Know About . . .
The AFL-CIO Policy on Immigration

The AFL-CIO proudly stands on the side of
immigrant workers. Immigrant workers are an
extremely important part of our nation’s economy,
our nation’s union movement and our nation’s
communities. In many ways, the new AFL-CIO
immigration policy signals a return of the union
movement to its historical roots. It is increasingly clear
that if the United States is to have an immigration
system that really works, it must be simultaneously
orderly, responsible and fair. The policies of both the
AFL-CIO and our country must reflect those goals.


The United States is a nation of laws. This means the
federal government has the sovereign authority and
constitutional responsibility to set and enforce limits
on immigration. It also means our government has
the obligation to enact and enforce laws in ways that
respect due process and civil liberties, safeguard
public health and safety and protect the rights and
opportunities of workers.


The current system is broken

Unfortunately, the current system of immigration
enforcement, while failing to stop the flow of
undocumented people into the United States, is
causing workplace discrimination against
immigrants and minorities, particularly
undocumented workers. The current system leaves
unpunished unscrupulous employers who exploit
undocumented workers and retaliate against them
when they join with other workers to assert their
rights, thus denying labor rights for all workers.


This system of workplace immigration enforcement
in the United States, with its emphasis on the I-9
system, is broken, targets workers instead of the
egregious employers who exploit them and needs to
be fixed.

Labor’s principles

We believe the following principles should form our
national immigration policy. Specifically:

• Undocumented workers and their families
make enormous contributions to their communities
and workplaces and should be provided
permanent legal status through a new legalization
program;
• Employer sanctions and the I-9 system should
be replaced with a system that targets and
criminalizes employers who recruit undocumented
workers from abroad for economic
gain;
• Immigrant workers should have full workplace
rights, including the right to organize and protections
for whistle-blowers;
• Government safety net benefits are important
for all workers, and those unfairly taken away
by Congress in 1996 should be restored.
• Labor and business together should design
mechanisms to meet legitimate needs for new
workers without compromising the rights and
opportunities of workers already here; and
• Guest worker programs should be reformed
but not expanded.

The AFL-CIO supports a broad legalization program
that makes no distinction based on country of origin
and that allows undocumented workers and their
families who have been working hard, paying taxes
and contributing to their communities the
Defending the Rights of Immigrant Workers
opportunity to adjust to permanent legal resident
status. We should recognize that one of the reasons
for undocumented immigration is that our current
legal immigration system for family members and
for workers is in shamefully bad shape. A broad
legalization program providing permanent residence
status, rather than a large new guest worker program,
should be the focus of our efforts.

The AFL-CIO and its affiliated unions will work
vigilantly with our coalition partners representing the
immigrant, ethnic, faith and civil rights communities
to ensure that comprehensive legislation providing
for legalization and the enforcement of workplace
rights for all workers is introduced in Congress and
ultimately signed into law.

History has proven that mistreatment of one group in
a workplace ultimately will lead to the mistreatment
of all workers. We must be mindful of and learn
from the history of oppression that many U.S.
workers have faced, in particular the long struggle of
African American workers. All workers must
understand the difference that unions make for
workers, whether it is a living wage, better benefits
or a safer work environment.

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/civilrights/i...

At least in these;

1)Activist Judges (Women, Gays, Blacks)

2) Liberal Media (Blacks)

3) 9/11 theories (Jews)

4) The gay agenda

5) Christian hatred

There seems to be a lot of them floating around these days. I'm not talking about the ones relating to a "third shooter" and the "grassy knoll". Every 9/11 theory I have read seems to somehow stem from a ridiculous Jewish conspiracy. Those are the ones that raise the ears of this old dog and I am constantly reading between the lines.

Considering the fact that we live in a world where both political parties have gone mad with greed, it seems that where hate groups have figured out a way to latch onto various constituencies. There is growing frustration with Israel (which stems from geograghy and military industrial complex) and lack of control of ones own life course (Which leads into controling various minority groups for exploitation.).

I guess control would be the underpinning factor in all of these. Not to mention what people are brought up to percieve that the actions of those in power are based on morals. When they find out it's "greed" it becomes almost like a childs rejection of the concept that Sant Clause does not exist. All that anger and frustration seems to manifest itself in other ways that misdirect the prime causes of their frustration.

The government and those that make up this body are guided by self interested assholes that seek to bolster their own wallet. The protocol for dealing with this difunction is to put across the idea to the public that they are somehow capable of acting morally. It's obvious that those instigated the Iraq war were acting on their self interests just as those that supply weapons and money to Israel act in the same. This is where the 9/11 conspiracy whackjobs seem to be taking advantage of others that are frustrated with the current establishment. Those of us that know this had nothing to do with Jews and everything to do with a greedy military industrial complex are labled as "America haters". This would be by both sects (The greedy bastards passing this off as a moral issue and those that blame jews for 9/11 through conspiracy theories. Funny, both are guided by an obsession with nationalism!!!!)

For centuries there were plenty of laws used to subjugate blacks in order to bolster profits. We call it slavery and Jim Crowe. Although we have dealt with some socio/political aspect that kept blacks down we have yet to cover the economical ramifications.

Women still get the shaft on a daily basis. They make 75 cents on the dollar to their male counter parts. Now abortion has come under fire and that sets things backwards. Sojourner Truth was so far ahead of her time on this issue that it's fuckin creepy.


Then we have those that spout "christian hatred" ( Think Orwell, "war is peace") which isn't about christian hatred but their hatred of everybody else. I'm talking bout Gays, Atheists, Jews, and Muslims. Not to mention other Christians that don't follow their Hard Line.

Now their is hatred for illegal immigrants which in some respects is close to the point but all that anger is misdirected by those with a heart full of hate. We are now about to construct a fence/wall. This issue was framed to seem like it was concern for those that are exploited and justice to be doled out to those exploiting. Yet, instead of victims standing together to take on the man we have victims blaming victims. I guess that comes from the fact that it's difficult for people to see themselves as the same victim. An issue that should be focused on exploitation and repairing a flawed economic system is now about victimizing more victims.

The world has gone crazy with hatred.

that are destroying the economy. I have to say that I am completely fucking amazed!!!! I am blown away at how quickly the citizens of this country lose site of their goals when given the opportunity to attack one another. I have never seen people willing to go on the attack with such reckless abandon on these issues;
1)CAFTA
2)NAFTA
3)WTO
4)WELFARE REFORM
5)BANKRUPTCY REFORM
6)OVERTIME REFORM
7)"THE DEATH TAX"
8) TAFT HARTLY
9) RIGHT TO WORK STATES

as they are to attack illegal aliens. Illegal workers have always been a part of this economy as long as I can remember. Not to mention many fought your grandparents coming over here by legal and illegal means making the same ridiculous claims of "they steal our jobs". The difference being is that some people organized with those who were supposedly "stealing our jobs" and made greater gains for the middle class than those who were screaming to kick them out. They took something that could have been misdirected class anger and channeled it into positive action.

Many of them had their lives taken from them for doing so.

Now today we are back to the same situation on an issue that divides labor of all walks of life and people are taking the bait. Those that are advocating for stricter immigration laws, wall building, and troops along the border are further to the right on this issue than the great union buster Ronald Reagan was!!!!!!!

I can't imagine brain dead Ronnie screaming "Build that Wall!!!!!!" Ronnie Reagan was not friend to labor.

The issues I listed above are more harmful to labor than illegal immigration is. Not to mention if those that care about the exploitation of labor through NAFTA, CAFTA, and WTO are willing to take the bait on this issue, you may as well cash in your chips now. NAFTA, CAFTA, and WTO are set up in such a way where citizenship does not matter and borders are used to crush labor through weaker regulations on the other side.

We, as the left, have always had a principle that we the people stand together. It is not the government of corporate news outlet that is going to give you an honest scoop on how to protect your labor. That is the issue here!!!! Your not going to win anything in this life by attacking your fellow laborers (Want to see those illegals disappear? Sign them on to labor Unions and watch how quickly the FBI acts. Nothing scares these corporate dummies more than a citizenry willing to act together as one).

PROTECTING YOUR LABOR. Not your jobs!!!! The only way to protect your labor is to embrace those illegal workers and sign them on to unions. GET EVERYONE ON BOARD.