While I'll agree with you that some of the language in the article was clumsy at best and rather ignorant in more than one place, I have to disagree strongly with your characterization of the $160,000 as less in value to Goodwill - and ultimately to those who truly need its services - than the clothes the participants in the fundraising event left with that evening.

I have been both an executive director and a development director for local chapters of national nonprofit organizations (like Goodwill) and I've got to say that raising $160,000 with one event is a dream come true for any local grassroots organization struggling to serve those in need (whether their needs be clothing, food, shelter, whatever). People give boxes and bags of clothes en masse every day to Goodwill. Even if the fundraiser participants did take "the best of what was in the DC area stores," it will be replaced by new donations in short order. Call your local Goodwill if you don't believe me.

What people don't give in great amounts every day to Goodwill and other worthy nonprofit organizations is money. And like it or not, hand-me-down clothes don't pay the power bills or the phone bill or the tiny salary any employees might actually be paid. The insurance, rent and taxes on the Goodwill facility. The gas and insurance and maintenance on the trucks that pick up the donations, the stipend for the drivers who do the heavy lifting. And so on.

So what if the rich folks were introduced to Goodwill on their own turf and in a way that was comfortable to them? Isn't that better than not being introduced to Goodwill at all?

People - rich or poor - don't change easily. Small steps are the real path to real change. I don't know what you expected from those at this event, but in the real world, Goodwill spoke truth to power that night. They didn't shove it down their throats and then sit back, smug and self-satisfied - and still empty pocketed and no better able to serve those in need than they were yesterday - and congratulate themselves on sticking it to the man.

And here's more food for thought - I'll bet that a good number of the women that bought clothes at that auction will return to Goodwill within a matter of less than a month with far more clothing to donate than the items they purchased that evening. While the money raised will go a long way to help that local Goodwill, the awareness of and interest in Goodwill's work among those who attended will last even longer.




Ok, that was more than two pennies and a whole soap crate instead of the usual box. Sorry. Just something I feel really strongly about.

Carry on.

Ok. I get it.

I won't waste your time with my bullshit opinion any further. Heck, 75% of the people of Alabama disagree with me, after all.

Oh, the irony. Usually whatever 75% of the people of Alabama believe on any given issue or candidate or political figure is automatically the subject of much scorn and derision here at DU. All of a sudden, the majority view down here in Dixie - as reported to us by the political pundits and pollsters who stay as far away from the Mason-Dixon line as possible - is gospel.

And all of a sudden disagreeing with 75% of the people in Alabama - which I have always been appluaded for here at DU - is ammo for spitting on the opinion of a long-time fellow DU member from Alabama who dares to have a view that is contrary to that of the rest of you.

Like I said, I won't waste your time or my breath trying to point out the truth about Don Siegelman. I've posted dozens of times about Siegelman in the past several years at DU, unlike most here who haven't ever given a shit about Alabama or the people who live here until the opportunity to use someone like Siegelman for your own blindly partisan agenda presented itself.

Enjoy your pyrrhic ticker tape parade, all you Alabama political system experts out there.


Sincerely,

Asshole in Alabama

You speak of trying to understand the religious mindset. One thing that may contribute to your frustration with that task is that there really isn't one monolithic and unified mindset among religious people in general, or even Christianity specifically. Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious here, but it is a point worth keeping in mind when trying to understand non-atheists. My answers to your questions will not provide any real illumination on the way all Christians think. In fact, they will contradict the views of some. But I hope you find them helpful in some way, because I believe you are sincerely trying to understand rather than to challenge or discredit others.

I believe that the Bible is a collection of chapters written by humans describing the events of their times and their interpretations of those events. A book compiled through debate and deliberation of many more humans, religious scholars of different communities over a long period of time. This overview of biblical canonization gives more detail. It has been translated into hundreds of languages and is available in dozens of versions. I do not believe the Bible is the absolute literal word of God. How could it be?

I do believe that the authors were divinely inspired, but at the end of the day, they were also human, as were those who followed them and made decisions about which of their writings would be chosen as the voice of religious authority. If it is the literal word of God, God had a habit of contradicting himself from time to time.



You'll find some very good information on the differing views of groups of Christians on the inerrancy of the Bible here.

You make a very important point in your post above the role of upbringing and experience as factors in one's religious choices later. My faith is far more rooted in my life experiences than it is tied to absolute belief in religious scripture. I was raised in a very open and loving church congregation by parents who involved my sister and me in volunteerism early on based on their understanding of the teachings of Jesus Christ in the Bible. I suppose that can fairly be called indoctrination. But I will say this: the Christianity I was taught was not afraid of questions or doubts. I was very involved church activities with strong leaders who encouraged open discussion and viewed being a Christian as a lifelong journey. I went on to serve as a missionary for several years in Africa, the Middle East and back here in the States as part of a multicultural program embracing peace and justice and the Christian call to work for both around the world.

Obviously I'm no biblical literalist. I would agree with you that there is indeeed "some bad stuff" in the Bible. That said, I suggest to you that to throw it out and replace it with a new book that just "leaves out all the bad stuff" would be just as subjective a process as the original canonization. Who would decide what got left in and what got left out?

The Bible is as complicated as we are as humans. That is one of its beauties, to me. It challenges those of us who believe in God and in the example of Jesus Christ to continually read it, digest it, reflect on it and eventually find our own inspiration - and outrage - in its words. Some of us will draw different conclusions than others. There is no way around it, I'm afraid.

The short answer is, there is no universal answer to your questions. But I've given you mine, and I hope it was helpful in some small way.

If we are this divided and - more importantly - this disrespectful and flat out ugly towards one another on the same side of the aisle, what does that say about us as mature adults, much less a group of people who ostensibly want to work together to defeat a common enemy in a few short months?

Our collective anger, while justified on many counts, has not served us nor this country well at all the past eight years.

And it is doing nothing to move us forward today.

Wake up, my friends. No matter who you support in the presidential race this year, don't forget that none of us knows it all.

Shut up and listen to one another every now and then. We don't have to agree on everything, but how the hell do we know exactly what others think if we busy ourselves with pigeonholing, stereotyping and e-yelling at them 24/7?




Don't recommend this thread. Just read it and think about it. Reply to it, if it interests you. Ignore it, if not. Or smack me down if you feel I'm out of line. Just say something other than some nasty and generally unoriginal shot at someone else's candidate here. If nothing else, do that.

Please.

Many are talking about this case "falling down the memory hole". I guess what folks don't realize is that this case has been ignored for several years now, so the "memory hole" has been home for news on Don Siegelman. Until now.

Not one single national media outlet was interested in the misdeeds of Siegelman - real or imagined - in all the years he was under scrutiny for financial misdeeds and corruption. Not one single national Democratic Party leader spoke up for Siegelman in all that time.

But all of a sudden this is some sort of conspiracy?



I am a proud and politically active liberal born and raised in Alabama, and yet I find myself in the minority here on this issue. I'm surprised that I might actually be in the minority here among Alabama DU'ers, given the facts of the case, but I can live with that and I trust my long-time Alabama DU friends can, too. We can agree to disagree.

Don Seigelman is a crook. He was not good for Alabama. To be fair, neither were any of the governors - Democrat OR Republican - who served before him for decades prior. We have a long and embarrassing history of cronyism in this state that transcends party lines. I challenge any Alabama DUer to present evidence to the contrary.

It just seems obvious to me. A Bush Administration judge enters a case at the 11th hour and makes the same ruling any other judge should have made given the evidence and the long history here, and all of a sudden this is a travesty and an injustice?

It's bait. That's what it is. And far too many people are falling for it. They've picked a Democratic public official who was going down on his own, publicized their involvement in the final nail in his coffin and are sitting back and savoring our knee-jerk outrage.

You think I'm wrong? Do some research. Siegelman made very derogatory comments about women in office when he ran against Lucy Baxley last time around - don't you guys here in Alabama remember that? Doesn't anyone remember when he was convicted - CONVICTED - of rigging public bids on medicaid contracts in 2004? Where was the outrage then?



Please research this case in depth before you pass judgement. I think that defending Siegelman is EXACTLY what the powers that be WANT us to do.

I'm not falling for it.

No matter how bad the crimes of Bush, Cheney, Rove and others in this abysmal administration may be, we do ourselves a disservice to defend crooks like Siegelman with the argument that their criminals are worse than ours. Surely we are above that.

I see that some in the national media who haven't given a rat's ass about the case against Siegelman and Scrushy the past several years are all of a sudden waxing poetic about the horrible injustice done to poor Don at the hands of the evil Republican regime. Well, fuck that. The Republican regime is the same one we've endured the past six years. Siegelman has been up to his eyeballs in legal trouble for years without a peep from a single enterprising reporter on the national scene. Until now.

What about Siegelman's indictment in 2004 for conspiring to rig bids on state medicaid contracts that was thrown out by a federal judge? A federal judge serving under the same Bush administration in office at the time. Where was the media then? Covering the once popular war, that's where. Opportunistic bastards. They smell blood in the water in Washington, DC, and the news from Alabama is nothing more than convenient fodder for people who never have and never will respect our state and those who care about it. I suggest we do not play right into their hands on this one.

Siegelman is guilty of far more than his conviction illustrates. And this Alabama liberal is happy with the verdict. Our state government has for far too long been dominated by self-serving politicos that differ little - if at all - regardless of political party. Siegelman was no shining star for Alabama during his time in office. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

Of all the issues at hand, the lottery business runs far deeper than the mainstream media is prepared to report, and there are many more conservative darlings caught up in it than have made the headlines. Think Abramoff and DeLay. And let go of Siegelman. Just because he has a "D" beside his name doesn't mean he is an ally of true progressives in our state. He's not.

Two pennies, if that.

To my friends here, who I drink beer - or Jack and coke - and watch college football with, take our kids to the county fair with, have girls' night out at the local Mexican joint with.... I'm a proud redneck woman, just like they are.

Play Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Sweet Home Alabama" when we're around, and we'll stand and sing along. Insult the South, and we'll get redneck on your ass. We love our silly daisy duke shorts and Bud Light in a bottle all summer long. I've seen Jimmy Buffet in concert nine times, and know all the words to way more of his songs than just those on his "Songs You Know by Heart" album.

That's me. That's who I am, my friend.

But I am also a tenacious fighter for and believer in justice. I don't fuck around when it comes to issues of right and wrong, especially in my hometown. The problem is, many of us feel we are fighting the well-established demons at home, while having to simultaneously defend ourselves against stereotype-fueled attacks from folks elsewhere who ought to be in our corner.

Someone stop me now, before my drawl gets going so hard it is no longer intelligible!

But I have no problem being called a redneck, and I have no doubts about my progressive politics. My family has deep roots in Alabama, where I was born and raised. My grandfather and all three of his brothers were county agents, men who worked for the extension service, finding ways to support rural farmers and, in the process, build stronger communities in our state and improve relations between blacks and whites. I am intensely proud of my family history in that regard, and the origins of the word "redneck" that are rooted in the sunburned necks of poor white farmers in the Deep South are nothing to be ashamed of for me.

Are there ignorant and racist rednecks around? There always have been and always will be, I'm afraid. But the same could be said about any random sample of residents of any state or region in this country.

But there were and still are many, many honest and decent "rednecks" about the South, and I see no reason for me to buy into a stereotype created by the Hollywood machine which has little use for me, my vote, or my efforts on behalf of peace and justice and a democratic United States. That stuff, you see, just doesn't sell as well as two good ol' boys, a chick in miniscule shorts, and an overblown buffoon of a small town sheriff in the Deep South.

But oh, how I wish it did.

And I hope that means every last one of you will click on this sometime today!




I wanted to tell you about something that absolutely warmed my heart yesterday. I took my daughter and my nephew to my small town's annual Christmas parade. Truth? I didn't want to go. I rarely have a Saturday when I don't have something I HAVE to do (work, soccer, etc...), and this struck me as optional.

I am so glad I went.

I forgot how silly and charming and sweet these events in little towns can be. Everyone and their brother was there. And most of them were in the parade in some way. There were the usual entries, the high school marching band, the girls from all the area dance studios twirling their batons and turning cartwheels, the homecoming queen and her court riding in convertibles on loan from the local Chevy dealership and driven by young men in lettermen's jackets and with no neck.

But then there were the things that defied expectations - there was a man who looked like Keith Richards (on a bad day - eek) on roller blades, wearing a Cat in the Hat topper and circling around for no discernible reason. There was a John Deere tractor pulling a little cart with seven little old ladies on it. I have idea who they were or why they were in the parade, but they looked like they were having fun, so we shouted "Merry Christmas!" to them, too.

Who knew so many people of all shapes and sizes in my little town could ride a unicycle? Wow. The funniest was a guy who would race towards the crowd, waving his arms and yelling "woah, woah, WOAH!" as if he was out of control until the very last minute. I still laugh thinking about him.

Anyone who owns a golf cart seemed to have gotten an slot in the parade, ditto anyone with a car built before 1970. All the local radio stations drove their vans in the parade, as did a local IT company, strangely.

I totally got a lump in my throat when about 20 Marines, in their dress blues, walked by in front of the Toys for Tots truck full of new toys for kids who might not have anything under the tree otherwise. I waved and said thank you to them. It isn't their fault they have an asshole for a boss.

My absolute favorite part of the parade, though, was when the bus from an assisted living community rode by, the residents of the facility all dressed in red and green and waving and smiling out the windows. Then the bus stopped, just past where we were standing, and an Elvis impersonator who had been standing on the corner jumped on and rode away with the old folks!




I know this all may sound totally ridiculous and hokey, but being a part of that goofy community tradition yesterday really meant something to me. And because all of you mean something to me, too, I just thought I'd share!

Have a wonderful day, my friends.

I'm not trying to be confrontational here, I'm honestly asking whether or not you truly believe that most hotel chains would put a copy of the Quran or any other religious book in every room if a group volunteered to pay for it?

Because I just don't think they would. And it would be interesting if some group would test this, because it would open a huge can of worms regarding the longstanding practice of allowing the Gideons to place a bible in hotel rooms across the country.

This is a perfect illustration of why the original post in this thread really impacted me. I don't give those bibles in the top drawer of hotel nightstands a second thought. But I never really thought about it from the perspective of an atheist - it is just one of many daily reminders that they are not the "norm" or part of the mainstream.

This was posted in the Lounge, but I have the green light from the OP to post a link here.

I, like many other liberal Christians on DU, find some of the posts lashing out against Christianity offensive and narrow-minded. But I found this thread to be very helpful in my understanding of where some of the negativity about Christianity may come from.

I think it is worth a read for anyone who would rather work towards understanding each other than keep fighting:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discu...

According to the 2000 U.S. Census, the African American population in my state, Alabama, is 26% While it is certainly more than the national percentage (12%), it is still far from a majority.

That said, that 26% of Alabama's population continue to give the vast majority of their votes to Democratic candidates. Kerry easily carried the counties in Alabama with the largest black populations last year. I would guess the same is true in other states across the South - black voters remain the most consistent and faithful supporters of our party, yet they still have to endure accusations of apathy and ignorance from within the party. Too many still expect blacks to do a great deal of the heavy lifting in electing Democratic candidates, and then are far too quick to blame them when things don't go well for the party. The popular "they are voting against their own self-interest" is particularly offensive and paternalistic.

I don't mean to attack you, paulidee. Just offer a different perspective on this issue. One thing we'll have to agree to disagree on is Tavis Smiley - an "idiot"? Yikes! I think he is one of the best broadcast commentators on issues of community and politics in this country. Don't always agree with everything he says, but I really respect the man and his ideas.

I feel no guilt about slavery or any other event of the past. Unless it is an event that happened during my lifetime in which I played a direct role and in which my role involved actions that wronged another person - in which case, I have eliminated any feelings of guilt by doing whatever was in my power to make amends to those I've wronged. I still have regrets over things in my own past, but no guilt.

Feelings of responsibility, on the other hand, are a whole different ball of wax. I am white, raised in the Deep South in a family of some privilege, and I know good and well my family's station in life - and hence that into which I was born - is related directly to the status quo of the past in this country. Does that make me guilty? Hell no. Does it lay some heavy responsibility on me to do what I can to continue to fight for positive change? Hell yes.

I read the autobiography of Malcolm X my first year out of college and it completely shifted my world perspective. I was already quite active in issues of racial reconciliation at home and abroad, but had never been hit in the face with one important truth - that there is much work to be done in the white community, particularly in circles of power and influence, and no one bears responsibility for this work more than those of us who have traveled in these circles and whose voice might be heard there.

Guilt is a sympathetic emotion, but in the end, it can't hold a candle to a sense of responsibility and drive to action. I make no apologies for anyone but myself. But I hope that through my words and especially my actions, I will be able to live up to the responsibility that fate has dealt me in life and in my community.

"The people" in Oklahoma do not think, vote or act with one unilateral brain.

Just f#$^ing stop with the generalizations. STATES are neither racist nor civilized, liberal nor conservative. People are. No one is arguing that states like Oklahoma, Texas or Alabama are really liberal hot spots and that the election results are a complete anomoly. Yes, we've got more right-wing nutjobs to contend with than many other states, but that's no reason to consider entire states and populations lost causes.

You say "they intend to crush you" at the end of your post. Who is "they"? Every man, woman and child in Texas? Obviously not, since you are a voice of sanity among the nutjobs there. Are you the sole voice, or are there others like you?

Just target the enemy accurately. Painting with a broad brush is sloppy and simplistic. And we don't need any sloppiness or simplistic thinking if we are going to wrest power away from this malicious and manipulative group of facists.

I used to live in that rose-colored world in which we (white folks of the liberal persuasion) could comfortably believe that racial differences really were all about the level of melonin (sp?) in one's skin. One good interracial potluck, a little Kumbaya, and everything could be right with the world, right?

Then I woke up. And started learning. And talking. And leading - this last one I found I had to do in my own, white, privileged community, where I could be most effective in pushing lasting, social change.

It is EXPERIENCE that counts far more than race - but one's race in this country has a lot to do with the experiences life brings (though we all have free will to REACT to experiences in our own way).

Hell, yes, I hold people like Condoleeza Rice to higher standards than others in the administration. Because I know she knows better. Her parents know better. Most of us know better than her performance indicates, don't we? Call me a racist (or reverse racist, or whatever other PC term is being trotted out these days), but I believe black folks on the whole are a heck of a lot more in tune to what's what when it comes to our country's leadership than the rest of us. I don't have any empirical or academic proof, just years of being blessed with friends of all backgrounds and ideology and colors, shapes and sizes - and I'll bet the farm every time on what the majority of my black friends tell me.

So I expect better from Condoleeza. Sue me.

I have cursed Condoleeza Rice in front of all my friends, black and white, and it is the whites who invariably defend her. And why? Because they are ashamed of the past - as we should be - but not brave enough to disconnect completely with it. So they are stuck being mealy mouth apologists for mediocre individuals who are terrible representatives of their race, their gender, and of all of us.

Not me. No thanks. I'm with Catwoman.